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Exactly. And even so, ICE vehicles have huge drops in efficiency in cold weather too... especially for short trips.
And people with fossil cars on road trips don’t notice it as much because gas stations are everywhere. When DC fast chargers are everywhere, it will be less noticeable in EVs as well because on a road trip you’ll rarely be far from a DCFC. This is why I’ve always thought that so-called “range anxiety” is better described as “charger anxiety”.

Currently, if an EV driver is on a road trip in conditions where the state of charge is dropping much faster than expected, depending on where in the country they are, they might or might not be able to find reliable DCFC nearby. In a fossil car, if you’re getting low on fuel sooner than expected, it’s rarely an issue because gas stations aren’t difficult to find.

I expect this situation to change quickly over the next 5 years, but right now road tripping with an EV takes some planning that takes into consideration a variety of conditions that ICE drivers aren’t used to thinking about at all.
 

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2021 ID.4 Pro S AWD w/Gradient - Kings Red
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This thing is an energy hog when temps get low. Today I ran a quick errand this morning when it was about 34-35 outside, pre-heated the cabin for about 10-15 mins before I left and battery max temp was 43-44 degrees upon start. While waiting for gate in my complex to open with heat on 70, butt warmer on 2 and steering heat on 2 it was sucking 6.5 KWH. It did drop to a more normal 1.3-1.5 KWH at the next stop about 1.5 miles down the road.

I kept my dongle plugged in while charging this past Friday to see if the BMS let the battery warm up while charging. Even after over 7 hours on an L2 plug (6-7 KWH) battery temps were pretty much ambient temp (55 degrees), guess I thought it would let the battery warm up to more optimal temperatures. I even kicked the cabin heat on about 10-15 mins before I unplugged.

Hopefully future software updates will improve cold weather performance.
 

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current battery tech is not good enough for these kind of temperatures, plus if you have heat on it is not how far you drive but how long you have heat on that will primarily drive your energy usage. so in your case use seat/steering wheel heater instead of cabin heater and dress warm :).

lot of EV newbies fail to understand how battery energy is consumed and that cabin heater can suck up more juice that driving in very cold temperatures. I learned this when we used to have Nissan leaf which has much smaller battery than ID4.

set cabin temperature to 60F, turn on heated seats/steering and dress warm and even this can suck up lot of juice when it is <30F outside
 

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Enthusiastic 1st Edition Owner
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Even after over 7 hours on an L2 plug (6-7 KWH) battery temps were pretty much ambient temp (55 degrees), guess I thought it would let the battery warm up to more optimal temperatures.
I'd guess VW's system doesn't pay heed to outside temps and they settled on 55 as a limit for L2, no matter summer or winter? I don't think there's any charging benefit in higher temps for L2 (not like with DCFC), but not giving consideration to somebody who wants to drive the car immediately after charging on a cold day. But 55 is also well into the operating range of the battery, so it shouldn't suck any more energy from the battery.
 

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2021 FE Mythos Black
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I was asking some questions when I had mine at the dealer the other day and they seemed confused about something. They said mine showed 3.2 software on their VW scanner. Then I was confused because my screen shows 3.1. They called it in to the engineers and were assured it is 3.2 and there is some kind of bug and all the 2023s have 3.2 but are showing 3.1. So that would be the version you should be waiting on.
My source in Europe told me several months ago that the Chattanooga cars would be delivered with 3.2. I'll try to find the thread I started and post it here.
 

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2021 FE Mythos Black
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2023 AWD Pro S
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186 Posts
Charge to 80% Thursday preheat car while still plugged into my L2 charger. Drive a total of 3 miles with a 10 minute stop, get home SOC is at 68% mi/kWh 0.9 temperature is in the 20's. Car sits all day Friday temps get down around 9 degrees over night. Go to preheat car from the app to run some errands, get a message that "The vehicles 12V battery is being conserved at this time due to extensive use of remote online services. No worries, though yo can use these features again once you have taken your car for a spin". I did nothing with the car all day Friday didn't even open the app. Walk out to the car and have a message Error: 12V power supply. Please service vehicle. Temp is around 22 degrees at this time. I sit in the car and let it charge up the 12V battery and message goes away, so decide to take the car on my errands 38 miles later around 4 stops and half hour at each stop. I get home with 34% SOC after only 41 miles spread out over 3 days average speed of 20 mph 1.7 mi/kWh driving like a grandpa.

If their sudo cold weather battery management is this bad I wonder how bad their over all battery management is.

I also thought the traction battery kept the 12V battery charged.
interesting. the temp here has been in the 30s. I've been getting around 2.5 m/kwh (per guessmeter). That's using cabin heat set to 72, heated seat, and heated wheel turned on all while traveling 70-75mph on semi hilly terrain. I'm pretty happy with those results. my total rt is about 120-130 miles a day..currently using around 50%-60% of the charge for the daily commute at those temps.
 

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2021 AWD Pro S
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I'd guess VW's system doesn't pay heed to outside temps and they settled on 55 as a limit for L2, no matter summer or winter?
No, it heats the battery only to 32F when on L2 then always stops. It does not go any higher when you pre-heat the cabin, but sometimes drifts a little higher above 32 after the PTC heater shuts off. It heats to 46F once you start driving or sit in the seat. The battery always slowly drifts to ambient temp after 7 hours whether plugged in or not. If your ambient is really cold like 0F and the battery cools over many hours, then it will heat to 32F again if plugged in.
 

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But what's the set point where battery cooling kicks in under L2 charging? We've all heard our fan and pump running.
the VW NHTSA docs says it uses the very powerful AC compressor to actively cool the battery above 95F (driving) or 86F (charging).
The coolant pump is always running at variable rates, and the variable speed radiator fan starts at some lower temp. I have not seen documented. But those are both low power and not much concern for efficiency compared to the AC compressor at up to 5500w which is 10-50x the watts of just the fan.
 

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I suppose you have never had any prior experience with EV in cold weather.
Not even Tesla in your scenario would be any better. You could learn by reading how to manage EV in cold weather.
Umm, my Model 3 preconditions the battery before departure if I request it to do so within the app. It also automatically preconditions en route to a supercharger. And cold weather driving in my car is not bad at all, especially not losing as much range as the OP in 20-degree weather — then again, I have a heat pump. I’ve also never had a 12v battery fault message in my 21,000 miles of driving the car.

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Just another data point. My wife left to go skiing this morning when it was 8* out. Preheated the car to 70* while it was on the charger. Drove 15 miles to the resort. Skied. Drove home. Net was 2.9 miles per kwh. So somewhere around a 10% range hit. That said, it spends the night in the garage where it typically does not get below 35*.
 

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Umm, my Model 3 preconditions the battery before departure if I request it to do so within the app. It also automatically preconditions en route to a supercharger. And cold weather driving in my car is not bad at all, especially not losing as much range as the OP in 20-degree weather — then again, I have a heat pump. I’ve also never had a 12v battery fault message in my 21,000 miles of driving the car.

View attachment 17732
I do agree but there are losses associated with heating up cabin and battery...Tesla is using motor stators for heating battery ( not very efficient but it does save on having dedicated coolant heater)
 

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2022 Pro S AWD v3.1
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931 Posts
What would you like to know
What were the road conditions, like dry pavement vs packed snow or something. I agree that’s a pretty big SOC hit, just thinking about other variables. I haven’t seen anything that extreme. Typically I see about a 20% hit in range in the winter but haven’t driven in snow conditions. Yet.

Edit: Sorry if I skipped over some detail.
 

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ID.4 Pro S Blue Dusk Gradient
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Discussion Starter · #40 · (Edited)
What were the road conditions, like dry pavement vs packed snow or something. I agree that’s a pretty big SOC hit, just thinking about other variables. I haven’t seen anything that extreme. Typically I see about a 20% hit in range in the winter but haven’t driven in snow conditions. Yet.

Edit: Sorry if I skipped over some detail.
a few snow flakes road was dry a little wind. all town streets, minor hills. Cabin temp was set at 70
 
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