[TXZag]

Seriously?

Were you promised lights on the dash buttons?
Free charging took more than 30 minutes to reach 80%??? Was it actually 40?
The range was only 240-260 miles?
OTA updates?
Did they guarantee the resale value?

Good luck with that.

Sounds like someone is just trying to find an axe to grind. Fine, you don’t like Volkswagen. The OP should either suck it up and learn to live with the car, or take their loss on resale and find another brand that will also likely not please the OP.

 

[TXZag]

If they promised OTA Updates they should have them. It cost us time and money to goto the dealer to get an update. My car has one bad one that some times the red light come on by the window stating to brake when there is no on in front of me this is a bad one. And periodically the rear right roof light blinks on and off. These bugs could be addressed with a OTA update.

I had two mercedes that were notorious for fantom braking/warnings. As I came to understand it, those systems can be triggered either by dirty sensors, or radio signals in the vicinity (not sure which kind). Regardless, that issue is not unique to VW or the ID.4.

On the subject of OTAs, I’ve gotten at least one, which installed without a problem. Once I got improvements to range and faster charging (I went from ~125 kW to over 17 kW on my last road trip), I’m happy. My 2021 is not equipped with some of the features 2021 European models came with, so I have come view OTAs as something that has to be tailored to the region where the car is sold. Europeans get more updates, probably because the European cars have more features than the US versions (matrix headlights, etc.). Also, earlier models, such as my 2021, are not equipped with some of the hardware necessary to implement some software upgrades, so earlier US models may not get as many updates as later models.

 

[TXZag]

This sort of response has been offered to me multiple times in this forum but let me state for the record:

I never in my wildest dreams expected that I would have to check that VW made it possible for me to find the BASIC OPERATING CONTROLS OF THE CAR'S HVAC at night. Now, I know better, of course and I'll never again buy a car without test-driving it at night. But the easier answer to that problem is “Buy my next car from a car company that knows that controls need to be illuminated.”

I believe you can access all of the HVAC controls from the infotainment screen, which is lit. My car, which is a 1st Ed., does this. I believe (can’t swear by it because I am not currently sitting in the car) there’s even a default icon for the HVAC system. The courtesy controls below the screen are another matter, but it is simply not true that you cannot find basic operating controls of the car’s HVAC at night.

 

[TXZag]

Perhaps not. Or maybe I just shouldn't be operating an ID.4.

Here are the controls for the new GM Equinox EV. Please note the REAL CONTROLS for the HVAC.

View attachment 35205

Also, the steering wheel appears to have real physical buttons that are a lot less error-prone than the ID.4's capacitive touch “swipeable” buttons:
View attachment 35206

I still think you'll eventually see regulations against cars that require that you divert your attention from the road to accomplish basic things.

I think if you see regulations against cars that require you to look elsewhere to accomplish basics things, then Tesla is screwed. And maybe if you are so enamored with the Chevy you should get rid of the V-dub and buy yourself a Chevy, so you won’t be so stressed all of the time over a car. Just sayin…

 

[TXZag]

I'm puzzled by this attitude.

Do you buy routinely products expecting them to not meet the promised functionality? Do you expect that the end consumer should have no recourse?

I believe there are a number of people who pile on, without necessarily having been victimized themselves. Some of these complaints, in my opinion, come across as whining. And I also believe that a lot of consumers don’t pay attention to the literature they have available to them to help them understand the limitations of the product they are purchasing. So for starters, understand what you are actually being promised, versus the ‘should’ and ‘up-to’ kinds of statements typical in advertisements.

I do believe customers should have recourse, but only if they’ve actually been harmed. I also believe consumers should do better at understanding the product they want to purchase. I’ve had my car for over three years and to be honest, it’s been a very good car. I do not feel I’ve been misled or cheated by VW. But I did my due-diligence. I was frustrated initially by the slow rollout of OTAs, but having worked in a tech-dependent industry and in support of major projects with software components, I understand the challenges of getting it right. Almost without exception, getting a major software component of any major plant upgrade correct was the critical path component that almost never came out on schedule. I believe this is why a lot of companies have resorted to drawing hard lines in the sand on the schedule, making software refinement and debugging more difficult. That’s why earlier versions of new tech almost always have a lot of bugs.

I also understand that many software updates for the ID.4 simply will not apply to me, because a) my car was manufactured for the US market and may not have features available in other parts of the world, and b) because my car is the first iteration, it does not have some of the physical components (e.g.,e sensors) necessary to support some of the upgrades included with some software upgrades. That’s just life. I knew it was going to be a limitation when I bought the car and I’m still ok with that.

 

[TXZag]

Just to clarify how long should someone consider something as new technology?

I’d say that it depends on the tech. A phone? Maybe a year. iPhone 17 has been out for about a year and we are still getting updates, some of which include bug fixes and security updates. A tech-heavy car? Maybe two or three years, at least? With a car the OS is running a lot more systems than a phone, so it could take a while to shake out all of the bugs and engineer fixes..

It's not a matter of time. It's more about development and understanding the need for companies to commercialize new products as soon as possible because R&D costs and commercialization delays are extremely costly. Therefore products needing massive development are generally offered to the public before they are optimized. Otherwise, the products would never be produced and/or the company will go out of business. Anyone who bought Windows PCs in the 1990s knows this. Anyone who bought 0.5 megapixel cameras for $600 in the past from H-P knows this.

As car companies keep talking about different chemistries for batteries and coming out with newer motors and inverters every couple of years it should be known that "they are not there yet". The fact that there has been no charging connector standard for the US market up until now tells you something. The industry and/or the government has not provided an adequate charging infrastructure. All signs that that point to early stages of development.

This is why I remain amazed that so many folks are disappointed, angry, or wanting to sue because the EV experience is not what they expected. Being first on the block to adopt the newest thing generally does not go well or a few years later they "could kick themselves " for jumping in so soon and should have waited because they purchased the obsolete model/technology and/or paid way too much for it. One way or another, early adopters pay whether it is with too high a price tag or with less than optimal experiences.

When the development stabilizes, the prices drop and the product is more widely accepted by the buying public, you might consider it no longer leading edge ( bleeding edge) technology.

Look at smartphones today. Suppliers struggle to come out with new features that really make a difference any more. Despite that they can still be quite expensive ( mostly branding issue)

Fore example, flat screen TVs are now the standard and are relatively cheap today. No longer new.

It's not a matter of time but you will know it when you see it. As usual, Toyota lets the others make all of the development mistakes and when the dust clears, they move in. When Toyota offers 10 EV models and the mainstream buyers are buying them, you know it is no longer exotic or "new tech".

My engineering education combined with my business management experience drives me to generally make cautious moves. I have often been accused of being anti-EV on these forums but actually I have prepared my home for EV charging to bring an EV into our garage. But the current situation is such that VW suddenly cancels the ID.7 coming to the US. I was actually interested in that car. VW keeps making improvements to the ID.4. VW will or will not move to NACS or when?
It has also been obvious to me that after the early adopters and enthusiasts got their EVs that market penetration would slow ( yes, folks, it will grow faster again). I was surprised, however, to read that many of those who moved to EVs ( with actual experience) are moving back to ICEs.

All signs that this is still very early in the development of the EV market.

This is just my attempt to provide you with an answer, if a bit long. I am sure there are far better examples.

Caveat emptor.

I generally agree with your analysis; however, suggesting that early adopters somehow overpaid for less tech is not really accurate. The early adopters (myself included) paid what the tech was worth to us at the time; however we chose to calculate its worth. I will also add that without these early sales, the continued development and deployment of EV technology would crawl to a near standstill. We are, after all, a capitalist culture, where maximizing profits remains the primary focus of for-profit corporations, including the auto manufacturing industry. I\I believe that it’s also a major factor in the slow development of charging infrastructure. Without demand for fast charging and without huge outlays by the federal government, there was no incentive to invest in the infrastructure. Biden’s climate bill goes a long way toward correcting that issue, but as you know, serious development never starts until the spigots are opened and the money begins to flow.

Getting back to calculating worth, I am very happy that I’ve been able to drive a very reliable car with all of the tech I needed, for the past 3+ years, without contributing appreciably to the increasing impacts of burning fossil fuels on the global climate. The $45k price (before tax incentives) was, in my mind, a fair price to pay to get off of fossil fuels. Waiting for perfection, as you suggested in your post, is basically a fool’s errand, because you’ll be waiting for something that will never happen. Time marches on and with it, consumer demands evolve and manufacturers continue to innovate. This necessarily keeps the march to perfection just out of reach.

 

[TXZag]

iPhone 15 came out 10 months ago. 😬

I was referring to the iOS, so I stand corrected; at least, as far as my attention to detail goes!

 

[TXZag]

I think mainstream buyers are not waiting for perfect experience with EVs. They are waiting for an acceptable experience with EVs. ICEs have set the standard for what is an acceptable experience with car ownership. EVs are not there yet for that group.

It's not like they are missing out on anything from a personal experience point of view. They still get to drive, hassle free. There is little incentive to move from their personal point of view and this is what drives folks more than concerns for the environment, I am sorry to say.

Those that bought the first Model 3 and Model Ys from Tesla surely overpaid. "Cool" but not so great cars at high prices, I would say.

This is a capitalist country but it is not the responsibility of consumers to support private corporations by buying their half baked products to maintain their profitability. So, mantream buyers will wait until things settle.

And for those who here that think that only folks that have not driven, owned or know someone that has an EV are the folks who are hesitant about switching to an EV, ask the 47% of EV owners sited in the Mckinsey report about their decision to move back to ICEs.

It's all still in the very early stages of development and growth and is, therefore, still looked at with some skepticism by many.

If you were addressing my post, I think you took some of my comments out of context. I never said that it was consumers’ responsibility to prop up private corporations (publicly traded are not ‘private’, but that’s not the issue), I said that without a market (i.e., customers) there is no incentive to produce a product. It’s fundamental demand-side economics. No market, no product. It’s that simple. That’s why some technologies go obsolete (VCRs, telephone booths, floppy disks, etc). And calling the current class of EVs half-baked is really nonsensical. My ID.4 is certainly not half-baked. Is it perfect? No, but that doesn’t make it “half-baked”, either. My EV has been a hell of a lot more reliable and overall more enjoyable to drive than our ICE sitting next to it in the garage. And I will also point out that ICE vehicles are not immune from the problems caused by software. Software is becoming more complex throughout the auto industry, with some legacy auto manufacturers experiencing major headaches with software issues in their ICE cars.

As for this 47% you mention in the McKinsey study, they have not moved back to ICE, but said they were likely to buy ICE next time out. I think it is also noteworthy that the McKinsey survey included both ICE and EV drivers. Anyway, as reported in the Boston Globe article I read on the McKinsey survey, the survey findings clashed with other studies, which found ownership satisfaction with EVs high with at least one report finding that around 73% would buy nothing but EVs in the future. And the McKinsey survey likewise found EV drivers were generally happy with the cars. According to the McKinsey survey, only 13% complained about the EV driving experience. It’s also important to note that EV drivers in other parts of the world reported higher levels of satisfaction with EVs than US drivers, with only 29% saying their next purchase was likely to be ICE. An immature charging network in the US and lack of in-home Level II charging were the major factors in the higher number of US drivers who said they plan to buy ICE next time, which have absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the cars on offer, or the level of satisfaction with the cars.

This all begs the question of the role of politics in US perceptions of EVs. Conservatives/GOP in the US have been openly hostile toward the adoption of EVs in the US. This is probably due to a couple of factors. First, the Biden climate bill promotes EV adoption and provides seed money for the development of charging networks; therefore, the tech must be defeated. Second, many red states are deep in the pockets of the oil and gas industry, having built their economies in large part on that industry, with the millions in political donations from oil and gas steering the politics of said states. So there’s incentive on their part to discourage adoption of EVs in the US. And while some people will brush all of this off or call it BS, it is matter of fact and cannot be ignored in any objective analysis of the slow adoption of EVs in the US.