When cold the DCFC is reduced and the waste heat from driving does not warm the battery much beyond 46F where the battery heater shuts off:
At 32F (0C) max out at 50kw
At 54F (12°C) battery it will max out 65Kw
63F (17°C) it will go up to 100+Kw
68F (20°C) will deliver max output if EA is actually capable delivering rated power on the box

Battery min.Temperature F versus DCFC kw:

Don't confuse ambient outdoor temps with battery temps. If you don't have a dongle, assume your battery temps are close to your overnight low temps if your car is sitting outside, unless your heater has come on at temps above.

The coming update improvements to 3.0 is supposed to help with the above problems: When driving making the heater stop at 32F to increase winter range, and making it heat to a higher setting when you have chosen a DCFC in the navigation.

What's bugging me, is that my 1st Edition is running the battery heater below 32°F even when not plugged in. I'm losing 5% SoC a night when temps drop to the teens or low 20s.


From unscientific Internet accounts, I'm not the only one experiencing this.

Sent from my LM-G900TM using Tapatalk

 

What's bugging me, is that my 1st Edition is running the battery heater below 32°F even when not plugged in. I'm losing 5% SoC a night when temps drop to the teens or low 20s.

Do you have a smart charger or other way to see that its the battery heater? It could be due to the battery getting cold causing a lower SOC by temperature alone.

The above chart is the max. speed at low SOC. At higher SOC the max. DCFC speed is also limited by the BMS, here is the charge curve at 70F for a 2021 with old software 2.3 (same speed as our 2.1) and after the car was updated to 3.0:

 

I have the same issue. Parking while unplugged & below 32°F the car trickles about 280 watts per hour. So far the only thing that blocks it is to have an energized connection level 1 or 2: connected TO the charge port, but charging is complete...

Still in doing so, there is a 2nd phantom draw randomly occurring pulling 2.5 -2.7 amps for anywhere from 15 to 45 minutes a few hours after charge is complete.

 

I have the same issue. Parking while unplugged & below 32°F the car trickles about 280 watts per hour. So far the only thing that blocks it is to have an energized connection level 1 or 2: connected TO the charge port, but charging is complete... Still in doing so, there is a 2nd phantom draw randomly occurring pulling 2.5 -2.7 amps for anywhere from 15 to 45 minutes a few hours after charge is complete.

Have your 12V battery tested for SOH.

 

What is the Group Size for the 12v battery in the ID4? If traveling and we find the 12v battery is dead can’t we just stop at an auto parts store and buy a battery replacement and get underway again? I understand the post by elecconnec wants to do this under warranty so I’m just asking for those owners who might get stuck away from home.

Also, what’s the status on the RUMOR that VW will be replacing all 12v batteries? Personally, I don’t understand why. The 12v battery is simple technology and even a cheap battery will last 3 -5 years in an ICE vehicle. It’s not exactly spinning up a starter motor for us - just powering up some low draw electronics.

 

If traveling and we find the 12v battery is dead can’t we just stop at an auto parts store and buy a battery replacement and get underway again?

You cannot do this unless you also have OBDeleven or similar and the know how to do the coding, since a new 12v battery always requires coding.

 

The BMS looks at the serial number reported by the battery, and knows if you have installed a new 12v battery as opposed to your old one was disconnected or dead.The BMS keeps a record of the charging history and the state of the battery. Coding a new battery tells the car the battery is new, its size, specs, and serial number, and to forget the history of charging. It will then monitor the new one from a blank history and help ensure the lifetime and performance of the newly installed battery. If you don't do this the new battery may not work at all, or it may go bad quickly (has anyone here done a battery replacement yet?). Here is a good page about DIY 12v coding:

Battery Replacement - Ross-Tech Wiki

wiki.ross-tech.com

 

The 2022 and 23 cars with 3.1 have different temps. than software 2.1, here is what I know so far: When driving 3.1 makes the heater run at a lower wattage, and stop at 32F to increase winter range, and this makes DCFC in cold weather become even slower. I updated the temps. that are listed in post #1, but since I don't have a 3.1 car yet it would be helpful to others if someone with a dongle can check their car to see what else with temp. they may have changed for cold weather.

 

Today was the first really cold morning of the fall at 15F, so I tested the heating while connected to my L2 32A EVSE which was finished charging at 80%. It heated the HV battery to 32F then stops. It draws all power from the house for all items I turned on like the heated windshield and cabin heat. These 2 were drawing 4000w total with the coolant pump and computer on. I did not go sit in the car to see if that also included the heated seats and wheel which I have set to come on auto, but those draw very little power. The heated windshield is great, it removed a thick layer of frost from the windshield in < 2 minutes. This is a good reason to leave the car plugged in with a L2 after charging is done, and to precondition the cabin starting at least 15-30 minutes before departure. It saved a good amount (around 2-3KW = 5% SOC) from being drained from the HV right away. Plus it keeps my wife happy, she has bad circulation and loves the heated seat and wheel.

 

I did not go sit in the car to see if that also included the heated seats and wheel which I have set to come on auto, but those draw very little power.

One word: FLIR! For the ultimate in non-intrusive heated seat and heated steering wheel monitoring!

 

Your energy use from EVSE is correct. It is split between battery coolant heater and cabin PTC heater running in eco mode and some energy used by 12V systems.

 

I have a 2023, and while the fall has been very mild, temperatures are starting to drop. I would be happy to get some data points on the 2023 battery, but I could use some help selecting a dongle. I have older Ross tech dongles, but I would like to try to find something cheaper than a Ross Tech solution. And something that doesn't have a subscription strategy for basic uses such as monitoring. Recommendations are requested and will help accelerate measurements for a 2023.

Related, although perhaps not 100% relevant, after 3 weeks of ownership I have been unable to get a charge from electrify America, except on one instance I was able to get partial power. Is there a way, perhaps with a dongle, that I can find out what the car is willing to accept power wise. After now over 25 attempts, almost all of which were attributed to EA charger breakdowns, I have only charged once. It was a warm battery, light winds, and above 45. There are only two charging stations within an hour of me, and it appears that when they go down it takes about 10 days before anyone can service them. And in my short history, that has resulted in almost every charger being toes up when I arrive despite EA's advertising that the charger is available.

 

The first thing I would try to do is narrow down where the problem might be: is it the car or the chargers? Initially, there's no real need for a dongle to do this. Are there any other DC fast chargers available nearby that you could try out to see if your car can charge successfully there? If you can DCFC from a different brand of chargers without issue, then the problem is probably not with the car. If it's a problem with the car, you'll need to take it in for service. You're still under warranty, so any work they'll do should be covered.

Also, did you call EA when the chargers weren't working at that location? Sometimes they can remotely reset the charger and that fixes some issues with the charger. Unfortunately, EA reliability varies widely by region and route. In my travels throughout New England and the mid-Atlantic states over the past 10 months or so, I've not seen many problems and have always been able to charge at EA locations. The one time I did run into a problem with a charger not working, I called EA, they reset the charger, and within 5 minutes I was able to charge.

 

What temperatures do I get reduced DCFC and regen? At what cold temperature makes the battery heater run and reduce my range?
These questions come up every few days in winter, so I have consolidated my replys from several threads here to make it easier to link.
Here are the key data points learned from many other cold weather charging threads, most from @VW TECHNICIAN and confirmed by others with dongles. These are battery min. temps. and you need to be at a low SOC around <20% to get the max. 125kw rate shown here.

When cold the DCFC is reduced and the waste heat from driving does not warm the battery much beyond 46F where the battery heater shuts off:
At 32F (0C) max out at 50kw
At 54F (12°C) battery it will max out 65Kw
63F (17°C) it will go up to 100+Kw
68F (20°C) will deliver max output if EA is actually capable delivering rated power on the box at <20% SOC

Battery min.Temperature F versus DCFC max. kw:

<0F when parked the battery heater will run, how often depends on SOC. This can draw up to 5500 watts plus the circulating pump.
<25F when plugged in, heater runs
<46F when driving, heater runs (now <32F with software 3.1)

Don't confuse ambient outdoor temps with battery temps. If you don't have a dongle, assume your battery temps are close to your overnight low temps if your car is sitting outside, unless your heater has come on at temps above.

Update: The 2022 and 23 cars with 3.1 have different temps. than above software 2.1 When driving 3.1 makes the heater run at a lower wattage, and stop at 32F to increase winter range, and this makes DCFC in cold weather become even slower. They have increased the max. charging rate to 170kw but that is with perfect conditions and a low SOC <20% at the start of DCFC.

Ok, that makes sense... Where do I get a dongle?

 

apple, get https://www.amazon.com/dp/B073XKQQQW
android is much faster and more secure, get BAFX Products ANDROID Bluetooth OBD2 Scanner Code Reader diagnostic Tool Elm327 | eBay

 

Here is new data point now that my car got updated to 3.1. This morning was the first cold test as it was 20F. While charging L2 at 7.2kw, 41%SOC, battery temp heated to 32F then heater shut off, I have a Dynamic limit for charging that is 24kw. This has not changed from what I got last winter when on 2.1, so I expect we will soon start seeing new posts about "my DCFC is really slow!"

 

I don't have a dongle, but my observation is that moderate driving, even on the highway, does not get the battery very warm. Going 65 MPH on the Interstate I get about 75 kW for my charging speed regardless of whether it is 20 degrees in Nevada or 90 degrees in New Mexico.

 

So what device, has what software, which would allow us to turn on battery heat, on demand, for winter charging? It seems VW is unlikely to fix this problem.

 

Nothing terribly convenient. I recall OBDEleven had a thing where you could turn it on as a "test", but I have never tried it.

 

My guess, based upon tests is that it does not. Maybe 42, and some heating from charging. But the target temp for the heater may be lower than that.

The battery also gets heated with a level 2 charger, when there's adequate power to do so. I haven't made detailed curves on that yet, but one technique I played with last winter, was charging at a low rate, say 10 or 15 amps, and then after the battery warmed up increasing the rate to 48 amps. Also hitting the road in the morning with a warmer battery helped performance and overall power consumption.

 

Yeah, i should have mentioned that the 70 degree thing is apparently new behavior in software 3.1. The experiences we had last winter might not be the same as what we will have this coming winter.

Once it gets colder here I can run some tests. We now have a working DCFC that is only 25 miles away.

 

What temperatures do I get reduced DCFC and regen? At what cold temperature makes the battery heater run and reduce my range?
These questions come up every few days in winter, so I have consolidated my replys from several threads here to make it easier to link.
Here are the key data points learned from many other cold weather charging threads, most from @VW TECHNICIAN and confirmed by others with dongles. These are battery min. temps. and you need to be at a low SOC around <20% to get the max. 125kw rate shown here.

When cold the DCFC is reduced and the waste heat from driving does not warm the battery much beyond 32F where the battery heater shuts off:
At 32F (0C) max out at 50kw
At 54F (12°C) battery it will max out 65Kw
63F (17°C) it will go up to 100+Kw
68F (20°C) will deliver max output if EA is actually capable delivering rated power on the box at <20% SOC

Battery min.Temperature F versus DCFC max. kw:

<0F when parked the battery heater will run, how often depends on SOC. This draws a variable rate up to 5500 watts plus the circulating pump.
<32F when plugged in and charging or preconditioning, heater runs
<46F when driving, heater runs, PTC heater outlet temp (now <32F with software 3.1)

Don't confuse ambient outdoor temps with battery temps. If you don't have a dongle, assume your battery temps are close to your overnight low temps if your car is sitting outside, unless your heater has come on at temps above.

I find pre-heating the cabin when <20F while the EVSE is still plugged in (even if charging is finished) is the easiest way to also heat the battery and get all the power from the house instead of consuming the HV battery. Another way is to do my charging as close to when I plan to leave as possible, so it also preconditions the battery to 32F.

Update: The 2022 and 23 cars with 3.1 have different temps. than above software 2.1 When driving 3.1 makes the heater run at a lower wattage to increase winter range, and this makes DCFC in cold weather become even slower. They have increased the max. charging rate to 170kw but that is with perfect conditions and a low SOC <20% at the start of DCFC. During DCFC it heats the battery to 70F, which will help with all later DCFC sessions on the same day.

“<0F when parked the battery heater will run, how often depends on SOC. This draws a variable rate up to 5500 watts plus the circulating pump.”

My VW dealer is telling me that this is incorrect: the heater will not start if the car is parked. Up to now @SunWizard has been more reliable in its info than my VW dealer, but my L2 is not showing any signs of electricity consumption. External temps were around 0F, maybe not cold enough?

My biggest concern is damage to the battery due to extreme cold weather. Should I worry? Thanks!

 

Cold won't damage your battery just sitting. The problem is charging when cold, which includes regen, and this is why both get limited when battery is <20F. The reports of power being drawn to heat the battery come only from a few members who got <0F here, and I think it was at <-10F. This may have gotten changed when they also changed many heating temperatures in the BMS that happened in late 21 production. There are very few who watch this when it gets that cold, and I have not gotten <0F to watch it. Anyone else get that cold and watch it or notice a big drop in SOC sitting at <-10F?

Edit: note these are battery temp which is often 10F higher than ambient. Most sources say -4F is the limit where li-ion batteries should not even be discharged or used at all. So it would be good if the BMS kicks in heat somewhere below that.

Will Lithium Batteries Freeze?

Some batteries are prone to freezing, but what about lithium-ion batteries? Read to find out more in this comprehensive guide.

battlebornbatteries.com

 

I have had -5F temps where I was monitoring charge and watching the car while it was parked. But I did not watch for additional drain on the battery. Furthermore, -5F is pretty close to -4F, and I would look for -10F and at least -5F on the battery if I were to check. So I cannot offer any definitive data, sorry.

However, on the two 23 AWD ProS and 23 RWD Pro that I have parked here, I have not seen any unexpected draw at low temperatures, in general. Let's say to 0F.

I will watch in the coming weeks.

 

Has anyone tried the Battery Heat function in OBDEleven? Looks like there is an ability to do a 5 minute "test" of the battery heater. Is this available while driving? I don't have an OBDEleven but would buy for this alone if it worked to help fake preconditioning while en-route to a DCFC!

https://forum.obdeleven.com/thread/18339/2021-2022-2023-battery-preconditioning

 

Looks like there is an ability to do a 5 minute "test" of the battery heater. Is this available while driving?

No that test requires the hood to be open.

Note that when <10F its a very good idea to pre-heat the cabin before driving, since this also heats the battery to 32F. This avoids the possible damage that can occur to the battery that they mention in the above article saying you should not even discharge a battery when its <-4F. At 0F it takes starting the preheat function 2x since it times out in 30 minutes and takes mine 1 hour to get to 32F.

 

While the article technically says When temps fall below -4F, I think we’re meant to understand that as battery temp nit ambient, right?

Correct. It appears the LG did something special so our batteries can go to -18F. I have not seen similar specs for the SK battery.

Also, are there features in the the Veepeak OBDCheck BLE+ making it worth the extra $20 over BLE?

I don't know since I use an old BT classic that is longer range and faster than any BLE. And I have OBDeleven which is BLE but very slow and clumsy to use to monitor things. I found this:
"the BLE+ is an updated model of OBD2 scanner that offers access to ELM327 v2.2 commands, whereas the BLE only allows access to v1.4. This is essentially where the differences lie, meaning that it comes with some extra functions, such as real-time sensor readings (that can be seen in a graph format) and customizable dashboard that allows you to see the PIDs you need."

So, What Does The Veepeak OBDCheck BLE+ Offer Over the BLE?

At LJM Car Diagnostics, we’re all about saving our customers money. We aim to save you money by supplying the best OBD car scanner tools on the market at great prices and by providing you with the knowledge needed to take care of more of your own vehicle maintenance. Now, in this blog, we take...

ljmcardiagnostics.co.uk

 

Thanks. I'm going to spring for the BLE+, and to the degree I can tell what's different, I'll report back at some point.

I'd never been aware of this sort of thing prior to joining VWIDTalk. It looks I can move the same device back and forth from our ID4 to my Tundra. Might have saved me a lot of time and a bit of money this summer when the 10-year old Tundra had its first non-routine maintenance service visit.

 

I have both obdlink cx that is only ble and I have the veepeak ble+. I've compared both and fail to see the difference. Car scanner reports the same latency for both devices and even with veepeak in classic bt. I ended sticking with CX for simplicity with other apps.

 

I learned about two other methods of increasing charging speeds in winter, though one is definitely more feasible and probably more scientifically sound than the other.

The first one is demonstrated in this Out of Spec video. (I'm sure it's been dissected on this forum but I couldn't find it.) My family would kill me if I drove like that to the first charging stop but, more importantly, it doesn't seem like a great test. I'm still an EV ignoramus, but why wasn't he using CarScanner in both cars to see whether the battery temp increased and to make sure the charger wasn't throttling the speed? And why did he give the control vehicle a lower-speed (and lower-powered?) charger instead of finding two 350kW ones?

The second method is mentioned by Björn Nyland around 3:20 here as he tests an XC40. He charges at the first stop for a little bit and then goes deeper at the second one. That certainly makes more sense to me than driving like a maniac (though the Volvo still didn't charge much faster), but maybe it's not always easy to find a second charger close enough to, say, charge from 10% to 20% (or whenever the battery gets a bit hotter than 70F) and then stop to charge at 10% again.

Thoughts on either method?

--Eric

 

Yoyoing is stupid and provides nothing. Out of spec did a crappy test. No temp mesurement of both cars before. Just relying on outside temp is bogus. His entire test was flawed. Then he yoyoed for 30min. Seriously what a joke. Who will even want to drive in such a manner for 30 min anyways. What heats up the battery is the demande on the battery. Either you pin a fully loaded trailer going 55 or drive at 90, that alone will create heat as well. Yoyoing is also dangerous and so annoying for other drivers to see your brake lights go on and off. And all that will provide a mere 5-10 degres max. Not mentionning the unnecessary wear on your already low life span tires. The 2nd method simply triggers the battery ptc on level 3 charging. Car wants to charge in ideal temp range thus heats it up. That a more efficient and inteligent way to do it. But you waste time going nowhere.

Tbh, my only methods right now is either the obd11 ptc activation(it's a pain) or i just make sure my car is in charge mode for a few hours before i leave( but that doesn't heat it up to be even near ideal lvl3 temps range.

 

The first one is demonstrated in this Out of Spec video.

Very poorly done test that proves nothing. It was discussed as bad by me and others here. Yo-yo is not a good way to warm the battery at all, as you are correct that it only adds 5-10F max.

The 2nd method simply triggers the battery ptc on level 3 charging.

That is not a good method either since its a waste and very slow to DCFC until you are <20%. The best is start with a 80% or more charge and warmed to 32F by charging just before departing (or by preheat the cabin), and drive as far as you can to <20% before your first DCFC. This driving warms it a little more >32F. The first DCFC may start slow but heats it to >100F so the rest of the DCFC on a trip are fast.

 

Thanks to you both for confirming my suspicions about yo-yoing.

And I won’t bother with the double-hop method unless maybe it fits in with the travel plan. After all, the Volvo wasn’t doing terrible at the second stop, pulling 130kW at -14C (in that temperature range, @Dougie01 won’t even leave the kitchen 😁).

—Eric

 

My solution to slow charging in winter is to take a bit longer drinking my coffee.