[Nai3t]

I'll say this: it'll be a cruel, cruel trick if Congress releases some sort of clarification/compromise along the lines of "any EV purchased in 2022 qualifies under the old rule" and sends everyone's plans into the dunk tank. They have the remainder of the year to make such a clarification, but I'd guess it would take EV sales to stall across the board to force such an exception.

 

[ChumbleSpuzz]

I'll say this: it'll be a cruel, cruel trick if Congress releases some sort of clarification/compromise along the lines of "any EV purchased in 2022 qualifies under the old rule" and sends everyone's plans into the dunk tank. They have the remainder of the year to make such a clarification, but I'd guess it would take EV sales to stall across the board to force such an exception.

EV sales could stop completely and that wouldn't happen. Congress doesn't do anything because it's in the interests of the people, they do it because they're getting "donations" from the the right industries in the right amounts.

 

[Nai3t]

EV sales could stop completely and that wouldn't happen. Congress doesn't do anything because it's in the interests of the people, they do it because they're getting "donations" from the the right industries in the right amounts.

That's kind of my point you're repeating, if NADA and big auto and foreign embassies on behalf of their manufacturing base and Michigan Senator Debbie Stabenow who has presumably close ties to the Big 3 feel the squeeze and in turn exert pressure, the rule will be clarified. Auto dealers donate to their elected officials on both sides of the aisle, in all 50 states. The worse sales decline (IF they decline), the greater that pressure will be to do something. They're going to hear it from their constituents, from their donors, from economic advisors, from environmental groups, and from foreign governments. It would be impossible to resist.

 

[Nadrealista]

unfortunate truth is that any (desirable) EV on the market today will sell with or without tax credit, until economy hits recession and demand dries up which can (will?) happen in not to distant future...

 

[PANZERidIV]

I have had a theory for a number of years now: There are too many wealthy people in America now so the changing financial troubles of the Middle Class(and the Disadvantaged Class) are no longer the main driving force on prices. So now we all can do is sit around wondering why there are no more crashes so we can find great deals on houses or cars that we can afford? Cheaper electric cars coming? Yeah, along with everything else. 🥱

 

[Nadrealista]

other side of that equation is EV supply which is clearly inadequate to meet the current demand. that will also change but in the next several years while the supply chains and car makers catch up..at this point I hang my hopes on either Yellen postponing the battery requirements (more likely) or VW delivering a US made ID4 before she enacts the battery requirements (less likely)...

as for income levels this gives you good idea:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States

 

[Nai3t]

...the changing financial troubles of the Middle Class(and the Disadvantaged Class) are no longer the main driving force on prices. So now we all can do is sit around wondering why there are no more crashes so we can find great deals

The low hanging fruit gets picked first, but even the shortest child on the ground knows the tree is full of tasty apples. It just takes somebody to invent the right kind of ladder to get to them.

 

[fireboy92k]

Well, the rule can't 'violate' the law. So they have to meet at least what in the law black and white parts without question. There is a lot of room for interpretation below that, but if the law says 'x battery components from the US starting at enactment' there isn't much that any interpretation can do about that.

You can get creative after that, though woe to those that also knowingly violate the spirit of the intent behind the law by the executive branch as well. Senator's in particular have a long memory and generally a long tenure, and they do not take such slights lightly. Don't ask me how I know.

 

[fireboy92k]

It's defintely a hard thing to get your head wrapped around. Not to take the conversation in a different direction, but just as an ancedote the discussions about annual energy costs in the UK going up 80%. I fully realize the 80% up hurts... a lot. But then I look at the number they are predicting for the average annual UK household after that jump..... and when you do the conversion and divide it up over 12 months... it's still less than I pay monthly for my electricity bill in Florida. And Florida is close to the 'avearge' costs for electricity in the US ($.14 a kWh is what I pay).

I have had a theory for a number of years now: There are too many wealthy people in America now so the changing financial troubles of the Middle Class(and the Disadvantaged Class) are no longer the main driving force on prices. So now we all can do is sit around wondering why there are no more crashes so we can find great deals on houses or cars that we can afford? Cheaper electric cars coming? Yeah, along with everything else. 🥱

 

[Nadrealista]

Well, the rule can't 'violate' the law. So they have to meet at least what in the law black and white parts without question. There is a lot of room for interpretation below that, but if the law says 'x battery components from the US starting at enactment' there isn't much that any interpretation can do about that.

You can get creative after that, though woe to those that also knowingly violate the spirit of the intent behind the law by the executive branch as well. Senator's in particular have a long memory and generally a long tenure, and they do not take such slights lightly. Don't ask me how I know.

I think treasury department can delay implementation of the battery rules if the carmakers know which buttons to push, just like they did with using US steel for the infrastructure bill projects.

 

[Mrcleop]

I think treasury department can delay implementation of the battery rules if the carmakers know which buttons to push, just like they did with using US steel for the infrastructure bill projects.

As long as one car meets the criteria for $7500, I don’t think they’ll delay. Because they’ll say it’s at least possible to qualify. And somehow I think it’ll be a Ford or GM product that qualifies.

 

[PANZERidIV]

other side of that equation is EV supply which is clearly inadequate to meet the current demand. that will also change but in the next several years while the supply chains and car makers catch up..at this point I hang my hopes on either Yellen postponing the battery requirements (more likely) or VW delivering a US made ID4 before she enacts the battery requirements (less likely)...

as for income levels this gives you good idea:
View attachment 14994

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States

Walked out of an economics class the 2nd night but I think people forget how many wealthy foreigners(either living here or not) are buying up everything here. They are silently helping to keep prices from falling like they always used to imo.

 

[jimw625]

o, this is all pretty confusing to follow, but it appears that not many id.4s qualify for any credit until 1/1/23. Is that the state of this thing right now?

 

[wildpitcher]

other side of that equation is EV supply which is clearly inadequate to meet the current demand. that will also change but in the next several years while the supply chains and car makers catch up..at this point I hang my hopes on either Yellen postponing the battery requirements (more likely) or VW delivering a US made ID4 before she enacts the battery requirements (less likely)...

as for income levels this gives you good idea:
View attachment 14994

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States

I believe these data are dated. The median household salary is now in the high $60s K

Dave

 

[Nadrealista]

I think it uses 2019 data and it shows that median income is in the 65-70K bracket, see bottom of the Wikipedia page link

US Census Bureau figures for 2019

Income of Household	Number (thousands) [64]	Percent in Group	Percent At or Below	Mean Income [64]	Mean number of earners [45]	Mean size of household [45]
Total	128,451	—	—	$98,088	1.32	2.53
Under $5,000	3784	2.95	2.95	$1,095	0.20	1.78
$5,000 to $9,999	2702	2.10	5.05	$7,917	0.36	1.72
$10,000 to $14,999	5141	4.00	9.05	$12,413	0.30	1.52
$15,000 to $19,999	5171	4.03	13.08	$17,358	0.44	1.68
$20,000 to $24,999	5066	3.94	17.02	$22,272	0.63	1.88
$25,000 to $29,999	5247	4.08	21.10	$27,054	0.74	2.05
$30,000 to $34,999	5457	4.25	25.35	$32,165	0.83	2.14
$35,000 to $39,999	4702	3.65	29.00	$37,127	0.92	2.23
$40,000 to $44,999	5377	4.20	33.20	$41,981	0.99	2.21
$45,000 to $49,999	4972	3.87	37.07	$47,098	1.05	2.28
$50,000 to $54,999	4885	3.80	40.87	$52,000	1.15	2.36
$55,000 to $59,999	4364	3.40	44.27	$57,148	1.20	2.44
$60,000 to $64,999	4531	3.53	47.80	$61,985	1.42	2.44
$65,000 to $69,999	3655	2.85	50.65	$67,147	1.42	2.66
$70,000 to $74,999	3807	2.95	53.60	$72,099	1.39	2.60
$75,000 to $79,999	3549	2.75	56.35	$77,015	1.46	2.61
$80,000 to $84,999	3402	2.65	59.00	$81,993	1.55	2.70
$85,000 to $89,999	3013	2.35	61.35	$87,072	1.62	2.71
$90,000 to $94,999	3023	2.35	63.70	$92,096	1.60	2.71
$95,000 to $99,999	2817	2.20	65.90	$97,282	1.71	2.86
$100,000 to $104,999	2852	2.22	68.12	$102,087	1.64	2.85
$105,000 to $109,999	2491	1.95	70.07	$107,156	1.73	2.84
$110,000 to $114,999	2413	1.88	71.95	$111,979	1.77	2.89
$115,000 to $119,999	1965	1.53	73.48	$117,101	1.94	3.11
$120,000 to $124,999	2393	1.86	75.34	$121,995	1.85	2.98
$125,000 to $129,999	1785	1.40	76.74	$127,103	1.89	3.03
$130,000 to $134,999	1778	1.38	78.12	$132,095	1.91	3.06
$135,000 to $139,999	1582	1.23	79.35	$137,223	1.92	3.06
$140,000 to $144,999	1400	1.10	80.45	$142,087	1.86	3.08
$145,000 to $149,999	1311	1.02	81.47	$147,147	1.92	3.15
$150,000 to $154,999	1721	1.34	82.81	$151,963	1.82	2.96
$155,000 to $159,999	1208	0.94	83.75	$157,272	2.01	3.11
$160,000 to $164,999	1260	0.98	84.73	$161,959	2.07	3.16
$165,000 to $169,999	1008	0.78	85.51	$167,185	2.12	3.20
$170,000 to $174,999	1251	0.97	86.48	$172,193	1.98	3.16
$175,000 to $179,999	997	0.78	87.26	$177,153	1.98	3.25
$180,000 to $184,999	908	0.71	87.97	$181,968	2.06	3.32
$185,000 to $189,999	820	0.64	88.61	$187,216	2.05	3.09
$190,000 to $194,999	828	0.64	89.25	$192,064	2.05	3.26
$195,000 to $199,999	647	0.50	89.75	$197,211	2.14	3.28
$200,000 to $249,999	5354	4.15	93.90	$221,050	2.09	3.23
$250,000 and over	7816	6.10	100.00	$416,871

 

[Nadrealista]

or

 

[PANZERidIV]

Ah yes, reliable up to date info is what the internet provides! Or mostly just a bunch of lazy people chasing a buck?

 

[Aizome]

Not sure if I am seeing this right, but VW of Pasadena (for those in SoCal) just got like 14 in stock. They go for MSRP.... I really want to go for a 2023, but this is tempting.

 

[sbt007]

All reserved orders show up as stock. The main question is if some are cancelled. Often they get listed as MSRP but when you call they hit you with the details. That being said, a different SoCal dealer was selling for MSRP plus $1500 of crap, but it sold before I could get there.

 

[Nycturne]

All reserved orders show up as stock. The main question is if some are cancelled. Often they get listed as MSRP but when you call they hit you with the details. That being said, a different SoCal dealer was selling for MSRP plus $1500 of crap, but it sold before I could get there.

This is what I’ve run into far too often looking around in the PNW. Thankfully the bigger dealers mark reserved vehicles so it’s easier to check how many are cancellations.