Volkswagen ID Forum banner
1 - 20 of 32 Posts

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
478 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
My friend Don and I both picked up our FEs on March 26 at Donaldsons VW in Sayville, NY. We did not meet until a few weeks later at an ID.4 event at the same dealer. Since then, we have compared notes about our cars on the phone several times. I briefly mentioned the problem Don was having with his car in a thread about my car, but it is worth repeating here in a new thread because of some serious issues he is now having. About a month ago, Don was not able to get his car to go into gear. He had it towed to Donaldsons and after a few days, he was told the 12 V battery was bad and it would take 2 weeks to get a new one. He picked the car up about a week and a half ago, and initially, he was elated because he thought the infotainment screen was faster and less glitchy. His happiness was short-lived, however, because of a series of issues, one especially serious. The first problem was that Hello ID did not work for a day. It came back the next day but then travel assist was not available that morning but came back in the afternoon. At some point after that, he heard a warning bell and had a notice on the screen that said "Please drive in the center of the lane". This went on for about 10 minutes. Don says he was in the center of the lane and at this point, I would have to say that Don has way more credibility than the car. The next issue happened when he was backing into the garage. When he selected reverse, the back massage came on. He then selected drive and the back massage went off. He tried this 6 times with the same result. The next issue is the most serious. He drove to an EA charger and charged to 100%. He then drove home to his gated community and was driving about 15 MPH in the community to his house when he experienced an unintended acceleration event that was very aggressive. He was easily able to overpower this by slamming on the brakes. The car is at the dealer now. I was taking notes when I was speaking to Don on the phone so I am pretty sure this is an accurate account.
 

·
Registered User
ID.4 1st Edition White / Lunar Grey
Joined
·
947 Posts
I'd be careful relaying 2nd hand claims of unintended acceleration as factual. We know all too often these turn out to be driver error, whether cruise control activation or just a little clumsy foot work. I realize you're not representing it as an eye witness account, but all the same, it would be good to know what VW comes up with, because (a) this type of accusation garners a lot of attention and (b) this is the first such report of something like this I've read, so even if true, it isn't indicative of a known problem with this vehicle.

I hope Don's problems are largely software related and get sorted in short order.
 

·
Registered User
Joined
·
280 Posts
I'd be careful relaying 2nd hand claims of unintended acceleration as factual. We know all too often these turn out to be driver error, whether cruise control activation or just a little clumsy foot work. I realize you're not representing it as an eye witness account, but all the same, it would be good to knoe what VW comes up with, because (a) this type of accusation garners a lot of attention and (b) this is the first such report of something like this I've read, so even if true, it isn't indicative of a known problem with this vehicle.

I hope Don's problems are largely software related and get sorted in short order.
Had the same feeling. Not wanting to dismiss his problems, yet it's so easy to unintentionally engage ACC, or forget that you've engaged it as a means of autohold, etc.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
478 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I'd be careful relaying 2nd hand claims of unintended acceleration as factual. We know all too often these turn out to be driver error, whether cruise control activation or just a little clumsy foot work. I realize you're not representing it as an eye witness account, but all the same, it would be good to know what VW comes up with, because (a) this type of accusation garners a lot of attention and (b) this is the first such report of something like this I've read, so even if true, it isn't indicative of a known problem with this vehicle.

I hope Don's problems are largely software related and get sorted in short order.
I realize this but this car is having many issues and I didn't want to leave anything out. Don does not like to post but I thought it was important to relay his observations and everyone can make their own judgments.
 

·
Registered User
Joined
·
280 Posts
I realize this but this car is having many issues and I didn't want to leave anything out. Don does not like to post but I thought it was important to relay his observations and everyone can make their own judgments.
keep us posted on the outcome of the investigation.
 

·
Registered User
Joined
·
690 Posts
It is things like this where I hope to have some means of pulling codes before the dealer gets their hands on the car. I like to know what is going on with my car and I hate having to take a car into the dealer. Several times having pulled codes before taking it into the dealer has saved me from some expensive repairs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Spin

·
Registered User
Joined
·
66 Posts
I hate to be that guy but reports of "unintended acceleration" are pretty much always driver error, not a fault with the car. ACC and other systems do not automatically make driving these vehicles safer if the driver doesn't really understand how the features work and what their limitations are. Having said that, It's probably theoretically possible for the "gas pedal" to send false data to the ECU calling for acceleration, but man this is probably needle in a haystack rare and the systems have safeguards to prevent this from happening. shrug

If I ever thought my car (any car) was having a real issue with unintended acceleration, I would get rid of it immediately, while also filing a complaint with NHTSA. But that's me.

I go through new cars like most people go through pairs of shoes. Back in the 80s I had a manual transmission BMW 325i with a sticky mechanical throttle linkage that intermittently caused engine revs to hang relatively high when the gas pedal was completely released. I could never get it to happen at the dealer but it happened in real driving several times. I got rid of the car.

In any case I hope he gets his issues sorted out.
 

·
Registered User
VW ID.4 Pro S
Joined
·
39 Posts
My friend Don and I both picked up our FEs on March 26 at Donaldsons VW in Sayville, NY. We did not meet until a few weeks later at an ID.4 event at the same dealer. Since then, we have compared notes about our cars on the phone several times. I briefly mentioned the problem Don was having with his car in a thread about my car, but it is worth repeating here in a new thread because of some serious issues he is now having. About a month ago, Don was not able to get his car to go into gear. He had it towed to Donaldsons and after a few days, he was told the 12 V battery was bad and it would take 2 weeks to get a new one. He picked the car up about a week and a half ago, and initially, he was elated because he thought the infotainment screen was faster and less glitchy. His happiness was short-lived, however, because of a series of issues, one especially serious. The first problem was that Hello ID did not work for a day. It came back the next day but then travel assist was not available that morning but came back in the afternoon. At some point after that, he heard a warning bell and had a notice on the screen that said "Please drive in the center of the lane". This went on for about 10 minutes. Don says he was in the center of the lane and at this point, I would have to say that Don has way more credibility than the car. The next issue happened when he was backing into the garage. When he selected reverse, the back massage came on. He then selected drive and the back massage went off. He tried this 6 times with the same result. The next issue is the most serious. He drove to an EA charger and charged to 100%. He then drove home to his gated community and was driving about 15 MPH in the community to his house when he experienced an unintended acceleration event that was very aggressive. He was easily able to overpower this by slamming on the brakes. The car is at the dealer now. I was taking notes when I was speaking to Don on the phone so I am pretty sure this is an accurate account.
As usual, I would recommend that your friend consider filing a detailed (as much as possible) vehicle complaint here on the encountered "sudden unintended acceleration" issue: Report a Vehicle Safety Problem, Equipment Issue | NHTSA

Sadly, the NHTSA is a horribly inadequate and slow regulatory agency that but it never hurts to report so that official documentation is made and in the off-chance that a defect pattern can be established at a later date.

As other have mentioned, "sudden unintended acceleration" events are typically difficult to prove that the vehicle is at-fault conclusively (although individual events are almost never exhaustively and independently analyzed by regulators), however, it is obviously not impossible that a vehicle defect can be present. Additionally, there is some budding evidence that "mode confusion", a well-known Human Factors issue, can be a contributing factor with increasingly automated vehicles and, perhaps, with BEV-specific traits in general.

A vehicle design that insufficiently accounts for addressable Human Factors issues is, in fact, a safety-related defect that must be rectified.

Stay safe!

Sincerely,

Adam J. Cook
 

·
Registered User
Joined
·
213 Posts
I've often thought that having a capacitive touch RES(ume) button was not the best engineering decision. It's really not that hard to inadvertently drag a piece of your hand across it when turning a corner. It's never resulted in what I would term an unintended acceleration event, even though I didn't intend to do it! o_O
 

·
Registered User
Joined
·
66 Posts
EDITED BY POSTER

The steering wheel buttons are likely hybrid capacitive switches. See later in the thread.

I've often thought that having a capacitive touch RES(ume) button was not the best engineering decision. It's really not that hard to inadvertently drag a piece of your hand across it when turning a corner. It's never resulted in what I would term an unintended acceleration event, even though I didn't intend to do it! o_O
The steering wheel buttons in the ID.4 are not capacitive touch. They must be pressed like any mechanical button. I just tried them. Simply touching them does nothing without a forceful press. Some media reports have said the ID.4 uses capacitive touch buttons for everything. I'm very sure they're wrong.


"Capacitive touch buttons have an ergonomic design that does not require force for actuation, but only contact with the surface of the button."
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
478 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Having said that, It's probably theoretically possible for the "gas pedal" to send false data to the ECU calling for acceleration, but man this is probably needle in a haystack rare and the systems have safeguards to prevent this from happening. shrug
The way I understand those safeguards is that they kill the throttle when the brake pedal is pushed. Don felt that this is what happened.
 

·
Registered User
Joined
·
66 Posts
Drive By Wire systems have redundant levels of safety controls (aka Throttle By Wire). For example there may be 2 sensors in the "pedal" that have to agree with each other with regard to pedal position. If one of the sensors fails (disagrees with the other sensor), that's a fault.

Interesting writeup on how a typical DBW system works. Unintended acceleration seems close to impossible in this system due to the multiple error checks.


The Drive By Wire (DBW) function allows your Elite ECU to accept an input from an Accelerator Pedal Position (APP) sensor and use this to control the output to a DBW Throttle Body. This type of control allows mapping of the throttle body opening curve, idle control, and lift-off anti-lag control.

A number of safety features are inherent in the design of OEM DBW systems. The APP sensor is required to have two position sensors, and the DBW throttle is also required to have two throttle position sensors (TPS). This requirement is so that the Elite ECU can detect a malfunction in the sensor, and prevent it from commanding the DBW Throttle to a position other than that being sent from the APP. i.e. the throttle cannot open unexpectedly. There are multiple checks being monitored by the Elite ECU to look for fault conditions, and in the event of a failure in the system the output to the DBW motor is cut. This will return the throttle to the rest position which is typically a fixed small amount of throttle opening. The amount of opening at rest is determined by the DBW throttle body design and not the Elite ECU.

Due to the large number of safety systems, there is also a large number of diagnostic channels and information involved with the installation and configuration of a DBW system.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
478 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I just spoke to Don and he is on his way to the dealer to pick up his car. I don't think any of us are surprised to learn that they could not reproduce any of his complaints. Don is an engineer and is well aware that most unintended acceleration events are due to driver error. He does not think this is the case in this incident, but he admits it is certainly a possibility.
 

·
Registered User
Joined
·
213 Posts
The steering wheel buttons in the ID.4 are not capacitive touch. They must be pressed like any mechanical button. I just tried them. Simply touching them does nothing without a forceful press. Some media reports have said the ID.4 uses capacitive touch buttons for everything. I'm very sure they're wrong.
Maybe not everything is capacitive touch. I can't think of anything on the IP or steering wheel that isn't. The ones on the steering wheel provide haptic feedback. I'm sure that I'm not the only one who has annoyingly unintentionally changed the radio station or media content without initiating a 'forceful press' of the up/down control.

Try this experiment with the key fob from 20 feet, or more, away from the car:
  • Unlock
  • Roll down the windows
  • Leave the key fob well outside the range of the proximity detectors (Maybe not necessary, but stay out of the seat and avoid inadvertent power-up)
  • Reach in through the window and forcefully press the "buttons" on the steering wheel
They're similar to iPhones like an SE2 or similar TouchID phones with a haptic feedback capacitive touch Home button. Same principle, there is no 'button'. There is no break in the display glass. It's a sophisticated ruse that works well.
 

·
Registered User
Joined
·
66 Posts
The way I understand those safeguards is that they kill the throttle when the brake pedal is pushed. Don felt that this is what happened.
I think you’re right. I believe it requires forceful application of the brake pedal for some defined period of time.
 

·
Registered User
Joined
·
21 Posts
Maybe not everything is capacitive touch. I can't think of anything on the IP or steering wheel that isn't. The ones on the steering wheel provide haptic feedback. I'm sure that I'm not the only one who has annoyingly unintentionally changed the radio station or media content without initiating a 'forceful press' of the up/down control.

Try this experiment with the key fob from 20 feet, or more, away from the car:
  • Unlock
  • Roll down the windows
  • Leave the key fob well outside the range of the proximity detectors (Maybe not necessary, but stay out of the seat and avoid inadvertent power-up)
  • Reach in through the window and forcefully press the "buttons" on the steering wheel
They're similar to iPhones like an SE2 or similar TouchID phones with a haptic feedback capacitive touch Home button. Same principle, there is no 'button'. There is no break in the display glass. It's a sophisticated ruse that works well.
The entire panel of buttons on each side of the steering wheel seems likes one big physical button. If you watch closely, the whole panel physically moves when you press any of the buttons on the panel. There may also be some haptic feedback as well.

In addition to the push button options, without pressing, you can slide your finger across the volume control for example. I think that is the main culprit for inadvertent changes since it's easy to slide some part of your hand near there while turning the wheel or whatever.
 

·
Registered User
Joined
·
66 Posts
EDITED BY POSTER

The steering wheel buttons are in fact capacitive, probably hybrid capacitive to be specific. And yes some of them respond to simple swipes. For example the radio volume and tuning controls. I stand corrected on that.

Maybe not everything is capacitive touch. I can't think of anything on the IP or steering wheel that isn't. The ones on the steering wheel provide haptic feedback. I'm sure that I'm not the only one who has annoyingly unintentionally changed the radio station or media content without initiating a 'forceful press' of the up/down control.

Try this experiment with the key fob from 20 feet, or more, away from the car:
  • Unlock
  • Roll down the windows
  • Leave the key fob well outside the range of the proximity detectors (Maybe not necessary, but stay out of the seat and avoid inadvertent power-up)
  • Reach in through the window and forcefully press the "buttons" on the steering wheel
They're similar to iPhones like an SE2 or similar TouchID phones with a haptic feedback capacitive touch Home button. Same principle, there is no 'button'. There is no break in the display glass. It's a sophisticated ruse that works well.
Maybe they’re some kind of hybrid capacitive-mechanical switch? In my quick test I got in the car, “started” it, waited for things to wake up, and tried just touching various steering wheel buttons. Nothing happened. This isn’t how other controls operate like on the dash and door.

I could be wrong. In fact I often am. But the steering wheel buttons don’t operate the way capacitive switches are described in the link I posted.

Hey we’re all learning here. Ha.
 
1 - 20 of 32 Posts
Top