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Discussion Starter #23
A Better Routeplanner now has the heatpump as an option for the ID.3. The data of ABR is usually pretty accurate. If I have time I might plan a few routes in Canada or in the Nordics to see how the range is impacted according to ABR.


837
 

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Inside EV blog has an article today (Sat) about Bjorn Nyland's experiment with heat pump efficiency. For those that don't know, Bjorn is a big Tesla Fanboy in Norway who is a prolific tester. He says that his Model 3 does not have a heat pump but he wishes it did, so he tested a BMW i3, which does, to see if he could determine what difference a heat pump makes. There was no discussion of his methodology but he found that the heat pump increased range by about 5% in early-winter Norway. This seems to support VW saying a heat pump is not a critical item, but is nice to have. That's pretty much where I am. I'd like to have it, but it's not a make or break item for me. The lack will probably lower resale in colder locations for the first year's production that won't have a heat pump. I think it's pretty much inevitable that one will be added in subsequent year's production--most likely when US production starts. I expect it will be standard in AWD versions and optional in cost-leading RWD models--but not for we RWD early movers.
 

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If the awd US-spec model id4 does not have a heat pump, I probably will cancel my reservation!
I canceled my reservation due to the overwhelming evidence against a heat pump, and my dealer contacted me about it. The rep stated everything he's received from VW says there IS a heat pump/heat pump option. I linked him to the other post on here where members had talked to eMobility, and he said he would look into it. I haven't heard anything back from him yet and it's been almost a week.
 

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2021 ID.4 1st Edition (on order), 2012 CC Sport, 1986 Golf (former), 1967 Beetle (former)
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I canceled my reservation due to the overwhelming evidence against a heat pump, and my dealer contacted me about it. The rep stated everything he's received from VW says there IS a heat pump/heat pump option. I linked him to the other post on here where members had talked to eMobility, and he said he would look into it. I haven't heard anything back from him yet and it's been almost a week.
I think the dealers are in-the-dark from VoA as we are. I haven't been able to get help from Customer Care or eMobility on a pricing error in the configurator. I'm leaning towards cancelling, but might just wait until it's shipped to my dealer (then select another model).
 

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I also am leaning towards cancelling. I honestly wanted a model 3, I don’t like SUVs, but my wife didn’t agree with the pricing of the long range model 3. This was also when we were being led to believe the range of the id4 would be similar to the long range M3, now that it’s the same as standard range, I’m unsure of my reservation.
 

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Another thought is that VW has cleverly worked the battery cooling system firmware such that on cold days some/more of the battery heat is allowed to provide a warmer thermal mass to help warm the cabin? Again, radiant heat concept.
Related, I really wish I had in-slab radiant heat in my garage but missed the concrete pour opportunity. It really is a very efficient way to heat the occupants of a space, but then too is a heat pump.
 

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I went the reciprocal. I had a Model 3 reservation upon model intro but then realized I wanted/needed a CUV (I don't like full, boxy, SUV's either, but for me a CUV is a nice styling/utility compromise). So, ID.4
I also am leaning towards cancelling. I honestly wanted a model 3, I don’t like SUVs, but my wife didn’t agree with the pricing of the long range model 3. This was also when we were being led to believe the range of the id4 would be similar to the long range M3, now that it’s the same as standard range, I’m unsure of my reservation.
 

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Inside EV blog has an article today (Sat) about Bjorn Nyland's experiment with heat pump efficiency. For those that don't know, Bjorn is a big Tesla Fanboy in Norway who is a prolific tester. He says that his Model 3 does not have a heat pump but he wishes it did, so he tested a BMW i3, which does, to see if he could determine what difference a heat pump makes. There was no discussion of his methodology but he found that the heat pump increased range by about 5% in early-winter Norway. This seems to support VW saying a heat pump is not a critical item, but is nice to have. That's pretty much where I am. I'd like to have it, but it's not a make or break item for me. The lack will probably lower resale in colder locations for the first year's production that won't have a heat pump. I think it's pretty much inevitable that one will be added in subsequent year's production--most likely when US production starts. I expect it will be standard in AWD versions and optional in cost-leading RWD models--but not for we RWD early movers.
The ID4 is more aerodynamic than the i3 and has a next generation heat pump that works down to 5F (meaning less use of the backup resistance heater), thus Bjorn's test isn't completely accurate for estimating the energy savings of the heat pump in the ID4. VW's own testing (posted on the UK website), claims up to 60km more range when the temperature is below 10C. That's substantial.
 

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I DO want a heat pump, but the more important factor pushing on me is the spec of the FE. It has a lot of things I really don't want, like a full glass roof, 20" wheels and a white steering wheel. The reason I have kept my FE reservation (I have a backup Pro reservation) is the $2K discount on the other things in the FE, like better headlights, garage door opener, and electric seats. Come Dec I'll have to decide on this and if the FE isn't going to deliver before my State's EV grants expire on Jan7, I'll opt for the Pro after Sept 1, when the next round of State EV grants come out. Perhaps the heat pump will be available then, too.
 

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TI Fluid Systems has been revealed as the heat pump supplier for the ID.3 and ID.4.


TI Fluid Systems has started volume production of new thermal products, assemblies and technology for the Volkswagen ID.3 and ID.4. TI Fluid Systems’ Jablonec plant in the Czech Republic supplies the components.

Headquartered in British Oxford, the company is a global supplier of fluid system technologies for the automotive industry. For Volkswagen, TIFS assembles the heat pump module with the electronic valves, accumulator, bracket, and chiller with associated high-pressure aluminium lines. The heat pump valve assembly are supplied from TI Fluid System’s Jablonec Plant in the Czech Republic.

The supplier will also provide the Chassis Thermal Coolant Loop Line Assemblies that are manufactured in various materials including lightweight engineered polymers. TIFS has commissioned a new plant in Tangier, Morocco for the battery electric vehicle market. This plant supplies the finished hoses to Tauste, Spain for final assembly and verification test.

Heat pumps in electric cars serve to heat and cool the interior often using CO2 as the refrigerant. Under certain conditions, the heat pump can operate with increased efficiency, thereby increasing the range of the battery.

“We are excited to announce the launch of these new battery electric vehicle components. With this product line, TI Fluid Systems has taken another important step to its future of becoming an integrated thermal management supplier for the battery electric vehicle market,” commented Bill Kozyra, President and CEO of TI Fluid Systems.

Volkswagen is selling the ID.3 electric car already and is expected to gear up volume production of the ID.4 for sales to start shortly. Both electric cars utilise the MEB platform and are expected to carry Volkswagen into the future as an EV volume manufacturer.

Partner TIFS looks back at a century in the market and has been working in the field of fluid systems for cars and light commercial vehicles for decades. The firm has production facilities at 108 locations in 28 countries.
 

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Discussion Starter #33
The video provides a hint why VW decided to not include the heatpump in the US. If correct, VOA isn’t trying to get the get the most of out the car.

A forum member (I forgot who, apologies) shared that VOA claimed that “the absence of a heatpump doesn’t impact range much”. The video suggests they decided against the heatpump because “it didn’t impact EPA range at all.”

There are two ways to test EPA range, the basic one (which most manufacturers choose because it’s fast and cheap) runs the test cycle in moderate temperature. A standard formula is then applied to estimate range in colder weather.

The more advanced testing method (and the one that leads to higher EPA ranges for optimized cars) repeats the test under different temperatures.

Tesla uses the second more advanced testing method, it sounds like VW the first.

 

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The video provides a hint why VW decided to not include the heatpump in the US. If correct, VOA isn’t trying to get the get the most of out the car.

A forum member (I forgot who, apologies) shared that VOA claimed that “the absence of a heatpump doesn’t impact range much”. The video suggests they decided against the heatpump because “it didn’t impact EPA range at all.”

There are two ways to test EPA range, the basic one (which most manufacturers choose because it’s fast and cheap) runs the test cycle in moderate temperature. A standard formula is then applied to estimate range in colder weather.

The more advanced testing method (and the one that leads to higher EPA ranges for optimized cars) repeats the test under different temperatures.

Tesla uses the second more advanced testing method, it sounds like VW the first.

I had no idea there were two kinds of EPA testing, wouldn't it be easier if there was 1 standard test method?
 

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From "Battery Life" Chris's real-world testing in his ID.3, I think any claim that “the absence of a heatpump doesn’t impact range much” is false. Following the release of his video, there was some lively discussion here. We concluded that range could be affected by about 20% at 32 degrees Fahrenheit while heating the cabin to a comfortable temperature.
 

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Discussion Starter #36
From "Battery Life" Chris's real-world testing in his ID.3, I think any claim that “the absence of a heatpump doesn’t impact range much” is false. Following the release of his video, there was some lively discussion here. We concluded that range could be affected by about 20% at 32 degrees Fahrenheit while heating the cabin to a comfortable temperature.
I watched his video of the test w/o heat pump. He posted on YouTube today that he's going to do the same test with an ID.3 with heat pump this Sunday. I'm curious what he'll find (and how's he compares the two cars).
 

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From "Battery Life" Chris's real-world testing in his ID.3, I think any claim that “the absence of a heatpump doesn’t impact range much” is false. Following the release of his video, there was some lively discussion here. We concluded that range could be affected by about 20% at 32 degrees Fahrenheit while heating the cabin to a comfortable temperature.
Yeah, he will be livestreaming another Pre-Heat to 21°C, Range 90km/h & Range 130km/h Test on Saturday starting at around 8 or 8:30AM Germany time. I think it is forecast to be -1 - +5°C & he plans to freeze himself for one of the cycles w/o heat. Then on Sunday he plans to livestream as well @ around 10:30 or 11 AM Germany time with the Max owner (w/HP) on a consumption test.
 

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Forced air heating takes a big hit at altitude too. Especially in dry climates. Transfer of heat to dry and thin air is far less efficient. I suspect that testing is done largely at sea level and perhaps in more humidity.

For Colorado high country, having a heat pump, heated seats, heated steering wheel, heated windshield, or anything else that can help is a requirement.

Tesla has added a heat pump, but misses the heated steering wheel and heated windshield. If I went with the VW, I recommend keeping your snow gear on with the temp set as low as possible.
 

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I have a reservation for the AWD Pro and will likely have less range than the RWD so a heat pump added to the AWD would be a good idea. Since this purchase will make us all electric and we live in Iowa and travel north, we cannot live with real world range much less than 200 miles in the winter. Only one EA charger in St Paul so wouldn’t make it. This is probably a deal killer. So have to put the MY back on the list. Always have been a loyal VW/Audi owner, but it has to work.
 
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