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In addition to heat pump, a battery warmer has major impact on range in cold climate. VW says heat pump just adds 5%, that could be true if the car has a separate battery warmer. I don't know if this is the case. Remember Tesla sold 1 million cars while their cars didn't have a heat pump, everybody was raving about them, and their competitors had a heat pump.

Anyway VW should understand that a typical EV buyer is much more interested and informed about the ins and outs of the car. Arguments like "it doesn't impact EPA range" are outdated in EV world. They should keep those for their legacy models and use a different attitude for marketing their EV models.
 

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Anyway VW should understand that a typical EV buyer is much more interested and informed about the ins and outs of the car. Arguments like "it doesn't impact EPA range" are outdated in EV world. They should keep those for their legacy models and use a different attitude for marketing their EV models.
Keep in mind, VW isn't shooting for the typical EV buyer, they are shooting for the masses. They have to if they are going to sell the cars in the numbers they need to.
 

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On VW's German website it says that a heat pump can give up to 30% more range in the winter.

I've decided that I'm going to hold off on the ID.4 until it comes with a heat pump here in the US. Hopefully VW reads these pages because I feel that this will be a dealbreaker for many people.
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Discussion Starter #44
I talked to a VoA engineer at the ID4 event at VW Oakland today. He didn't know what a heat pump was, but he was helpful in one unexpected way: He said that the features are decided by the marketing department at VoA. The engineers (not even the ones who know what a heat pump does) have no say.

And now it all makes sense: It's the wrong people making the wrong decisions. It's clear VW is still thinking like an old gas car manufacturer. IMO, Wolfsburg HQ should have limited the number of models and made sure every market gets the best EV possible, just like Tesla does.
 

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I talked to a VoA engineer at the ID4 event at VW Oakland today. He didn't know what a heat pump was, but he was helpful in one unexpected way: He said that the features are decided by the marketing department at VoA. The engineers (not even the ones who know what a heat pump does) have no say.
Kitt, thanks for the feedback from the Oakland event.

I'm really surprised that the VW "engineer" didn't know what a heat pump was...especially since VW offers it on the ID.4 for other markets...especially Canada. It's not typical for Engineering to get to decide what gets put in a product...even in the Tech Industry...including at Apple, Google, Facebook, Intel, etc. Product Management is usually the one that decides. That's not to say Product Management isn't made up of engineers along with people from other disciplines including marketing, finance, etc, but again it's rare that the Engineering design team would be able to make the call.
 

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Discussion Starter #46
@corfam I like to think that I know a thing or two about product development in Silicon Valley. ;) I think we all can agree marketing shouldn't be in charge. I even know Silicon Valley companies where the marketing department has to pay for drinks and snacks. No free microkitchens for them.

The engineer I spoke travels with the show cars and makes sure the software is up to date and the car works as expected. He said he wasn't involved in the development of the car, and he claimed to know a lot about the mechanical design of the car. He shared that besides the side reflector and a few changes to comply to local laws, the car is mechanically identical to the European model. Unlike other European cars, brakes and suspension are not customized for the US. (which makes me wonder how well the car will handle in California's pothole ridden freeways)
 

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I think we all can agree marketing shouldn't be in charge.
Absolutely agree! :)

The engineer I spoke travels with the show cars and makes sure the software is up to date and the car works as expected. He said he wasn't involved in the development of the car, and he claimed to know a lot about the mechanical design of the car. He shared that besides the side reflector and a few changes to comply to local laws, the car is mechanically identical to the European model. Unlike other European cars, brakes and suspension are not customized for the US. (which makes me wonder how well the car will handle in California's pothole ridden freeways)
He must have been enjoyable to talk with. It is nice to read that VW has engineers travelling with the tour. Makes sense given the state of the car, but I hadn't considered it. It's too bad he didn't know more about the heat pump since it sounds like he could have provided us more insight into its performance. Not to detour this thread, but did he happen to mention anything about software updates...in regards to possibly adding features over time? Anything about matrix lights...for instance?
 

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Discussion Starter #48
He must have been enjoyable to talk with. It is nice to read that VW has engineers travelling with the tour. Makes sense given the state of the car, but I hadn't considered it. It's too bad he didn't know more about the heat pump since it sounds like he could have provided us more insight into its performance. Not to detour this thread, but did he happen to mention anything about software updates...in regards to possibly adding features over time? Anything about matrix lights...for instance?
I should have asked about software updates. He only mentioned he manually updates the software on the show model. From what I understand from YouTube videos and discussions on this forum is that all systems can be updated and expanded OTA over time.

I was at the Polestar event in San Francisco last year. They had two engineers at the event, and both drove Tesla. They were very (perhaps a bit too) open about the shortcomings of the Polestar, but I learned a lot about the car. Much more than I learned about the ID.4 today. I guess this is also something VW has to get used to: a more technical audience requires a different team to show the car.
 

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I guess this is also something VW has to get used to: a more technical audience requires a different team to show the car.
Yes! The general info published and answers given through VW communication has been lacking, even though it seems clear that's the way they want it. It would be great if VW would participate on this forum in an official capacity. Probably never going to happen, but one can dream.

Thanks again for the feedback.
 

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Discussion Starter #50
Yes! The general info published and answers given through VW communication has been lacking, even though it seems clear that's the way they want it. It would be great if VW would participate on this forum in an official capacity. Probably never going to happen, but one can dream.
Agreed, that would be great. I can also imagine they're hesitant because it seems VW's social media team lacks EV knowledge (e.g. the famous tweet where they suggested to "buy an aftermarket heat pump" for the ID.4).

Personally, I would love to see VW create a skunkworks subbrand. Just build a new startup from the ground up using VW's MEB platform and production resources. No politics, no dealerships, just a team focused on creating and selling the best possible EVs.
 

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Discussion Starter #51
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interesting datapoint from an Austrian test with the old and new model 3 with heat pump (WP in the table)

 

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interesting datapoint from an Austrian test with the old and new model 3 with heat pump (WP in the table)

I don't know German, but did they account for the larger battery size of the 2021 Model 3? I think the battery is 5 kWh or so larger now.
 

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On VW's German website it says that a heat pump can give up to 30% more range in the winter.

I've decided that I'm going to hold off on the ID.4 until it comes with a heat pump here in the US. Hopefully VW reads these pages because I feel that this will be a dealbreaker for many people.
View attachment 1061
I am in upstate NY, way upstate, Lake Placid.
Heat pump is very important to me. Am thinking about waiting until 2022 or going with the Arriya.
what I can tell thus far is the Arriya has a heat pump. Although, information on the Arriya has been hard to come by.
 

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Discussion Starter #54
I don't know German, but did they account for the larger battery size of the 2021 Model 3? I think the battery is 5 kWh or so larger now.
I'll have to watch the video again to check that. However, the battery size shouldn't impact the efficiency (which they read off the screen)
 

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I'll have to watch the video again to check that. However, the battery size shouldn't impact the efficiency (which they read off the screen)
The difference in efficiency seems pretty well in line with what was shown in the ID.3 comparison on the Battery Life YouTube channel, somewhere in the neighborhood of 10-15% difference with heat pump vs without. So it doesn't appear to be the 30% difference which has been mentioned somewhere, and at least starts to give more data points to give some credibility to the 10-15% range. It's then up to everyone to decide whether that hit (on top of the efficiency loss due to just running any sort of HVAC) is important for their situation.
 

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I drive with my jacket on in winter. With traffic jams near the ski resort, you can be stuck in your car for hours. I did a 7 hour crawl in a RAV4 EV with only enough heat to occasionally defrost the windshield. Barely made it home.
 

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Even in the dead of winter (Minnesota) we try to avoid firing up the ICE in our Niro PHEV. With heated seats and steering wheel we can almost get away with it. The problem is the windshield fogging up. I’m hoping the heated windshield in the ID.4 will make the lack of a heat pump almost a non-issue.
 

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I'll have to watch the video again to check that. However, the battery size shouldn't impact the efficiency (which they read off the screen)
Thanks, that is correct, assuming efficiency is reported correctly, which is not guaranteed. I think the best way is to charge back to 100% and see how much each car takes.
 

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Thanks, that is correct, assuming efficiency is reported correctly, which is not guaranteed. I think the best way is to charge back to 100% and see how much each car takes.
I don’t think so. The car knows at any time how much electricity has flowed from the battery to the motor and other parts. That’s an easy thing to measure accurately. The car also knows fairly well how far it drove, from the wheel revolutions and from GPS. Consumption is the former divided into the latter.
 

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I don’t think so. The car knows at any time how much electricity has flowed from the battery to the motor and other parts. That’s an easy thing to measure accurately. The car also knows fairly well how far it drove, from the wheel revolutions and from GPS. Consumption is the former divided into the latter.
I am sure they can calculate it correctly if they want to. But I am skeptical because the calculated range and suggested battery size increase do not match with consumption. I read some article claiming new battery pack is 82 kWh, which is about 4 kWh larger than previous pack:

Tesla confirms new 82 kWh battery pack in Model 3, thanks to new cells - Electrek.

If consumption values are accurate they should have seen much larger range increase due to larger battery pack.
 
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