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Marketing/Finance is ALWAYS in charge. If a company can't widely sell a product at a reasonable price, no matter how engineering elegant it may be, it will not be profitable and as we know profit is the lifeblood of any company.

Also keep in mind that the more automotive knowledgeable enthusiasts such as ourselves are more critical than the general public for which a vehicle is just another appliance. VAG knows how to design a vehicle for their generally colder German climate and again I'm confident that the strip heating, coupled possibly with battery thermal mass, will be adequate for me, even as I too would prefer a heat pump.

Note that sometimes a company will take a loss on a feature rich product betting that they can amortize with high volume sales and/or maintenance. The ol' razor & blades marketing schema. I think VW is doing a good job at the intended price point, but of course time will tell.

[I'm an engineer so I do empathize with folk's feature-desires, but as later a program manager I had to wear the other hat. Quick, Cheap, Good - pick any Two ;) ]
 

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Discussion Starter #62
Wow, that's a lot of assumptions in a single comment. I agreed that every product is some sort of compromise though. Let's hope the marketing people (who probably never drove an EV) made the right choice... 🤷‍♂️
 

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Here is a new test with Model 3. Based on this test, the resistive heater uses 2170 w vs. 735 w for heat pump, although he says he can drop 2170 to about 1500 by changing some settings.

In a typical 3 hour road trip between charges that means 4 kWh difference, so heat pump is about 6 percent more efficient overall, although it is 2 to 3 times more efficient in terms of heating.

 

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I don't understand if VW can put the heat pump system in Canadian and EU models why not here in the US? For the sake of cutting cost in US models for simple heat pump where practically they will sell lot of these cars and put them on the board for EV market share, it doesn't make sense not to include it. If cost is the real issue then they should have waited releasing the vehicle until it is viable manufacturing it in the US, rather than make them in Germany a slim down version and offset the cost by taking out some improvements/features! Lot of the states in the US have really cold winter and if guys are switching for the 1st time to EV, VW should atelast give them efficiency and comfort for the winter months! I really liked the VW ID4 and felt this is it for me to switch, I looked at Pro S AWD option but now I am in doubt. If VW at least includes heat pump in ID4 US (don't care about head up display which is also not available in the US versions!), that will certainly make me choose this car. Damn it VW, you almost had me. Now I feel like waiting for Nissan Ariya..
Also, if heat pump is really not a big deal then why those Canadian and EU versions of ID4 has it? It has to be a difference making in heating and efficiency.
 

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I don't understand if VW can put the heat pump system in Canadian and EU models why not here in the US? For the sake of cutting cost in US models for simple heat pump where practically they will sell lot of these cars and put them on the board for EV market share, it doesn't make sense not to include it. If cost is the real issue then they should have waited releasing the vehicle until it is viable manufacturing it in the US, rather than make them in Germany a slim down version and offset the cost by taking out some improvements/features! Lot of the states in the US have really cold winter and if guys are switching for the 1st time to EV, VW should atelast give them efficiency and comfort for the winter months! I really liked the VW ID4 and felt this is it for me to switch, I looked at Pro S AWD option but now I am in doubt. If VW at least includes heat pump in ID4 US (don't care about head up display which is also not available in the US versions!), that will certainly make me choose this car. Damn it VW, you almost had me. Now I feel like waiting for Nissan Ariya..
Also, if heat pump is really not a big deal then why those Canadian and EU versions of ID4 has it? It has to be a difference making in heating and efficiency.
It seems like they are always one step behind Tesla. Probably they thought since Model 3 doesn't have a heat pump they can get away with no heat pump. Guess what now Model 3 and Y have heat pumps, so VW looks a bit stupid for trying to save $200. So they will have to add it for 2022 and then probably Tesla will add something else and they are again behind.

I think if they really want to go toe to toe with Tesla they have to put a heat pump in the car from day 1. Someone will do a range comparison in the cold and iD4 will look bad, then even adding a heat pump in year 2 cannot repair that damage.
 

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It seems like they are always one step behind Tesla. Probably they thought since Model 3 doesn't have a heat pump they can get away with no heat pump. Guess what now Model 3 and Y have heat pumps, so VW looks a bit stupid for trying to save $200. So they will have to add it for 2022 and then probably Tesla will add something else and they are again behind.

I think if they really want to go toe to toe with Tesla they have to put a heat pump in the car from day 1. Someone will do a range comparison in the cold and iD4 will look bad, then even adding a heat pump in year 2 cannot repair that damage.
Except they did include the heat pump in every region in the world that the car is sold in other than the US, most likely due to cost cutting and a general public that is unaware of EV-specific features.
 

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Except they did include the heat pump in every region in the world that the car is sold in other than the US, most likely due to cost cutting and a general public that is unaware of EV-specific features.
That exactly what it is. Kind of lame and taking US market for granted, huge volume here and they will need this market to be successful. If cost of a heat pump for US models was that big of a deal, they should have prioritized Tennessee plant to be ready for the manufacturing and deliver a full product rather than taking cutting corner approach to save some cost by dropping out parts..
 

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Counterpoint:


Naturally, the cleaner the electricity you can use to power the EV, the better for the environment. In addition, as the energy sources get cleaner, so does your EV.
 

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Since it's standard equipment on Canadian ID.4 that goes on sale in 2021, can't I just drive up from Seattle to Vancouver BC VW dealerships and pick up one from their parts dept? Then maybe have a mechanic install it but I'm sure it's a lot more complex than that:unsure:
 

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Since it's standard equipment on Canadian ID.4 that goes on sale in 2021, can't I just drive up from Seattle to Vancouver BC VW dealerships and pick up one from their parts dept? Then maybe have a mechanic install it but I'm sure it's a lot more complex than that:unsure:
I'm afraid you would need to re-plumb some of the refrigerant lines, reprogram the software and maybe add a few sensors. I bet the software is there, it would just need to be enabled. I suspect the wiring harness would have the connectors for the sensors, but it would be a bit of work to add the reversing valves to the refrigerant plumbing.
 

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I'm afraid you would need to re-plumb some of the refrigerant lines, reprogram the software and maybe add a few sensors. I bet the software is there, it would just need to be enabled. I suspect the wiring harness would have the connectors for the sensors, but it would be a bit of work to add the reversing valves to the refrigerant plumbing.
Yeah, I think it would be a lot of work similar to like a new heat pump on a house. I bet the wiring harness and connectors will be present since US and Canadian units will be shipped from Zwickau until Chattanooga in 2022. Looks like we'll have to keep our ICE SUV for our ski trips if we go with ID.4 Pro next year.
 

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Not much difference between ID.3 cars with and without heat pump. Practical test with good analysis here: Winter performance: nextmove tests battery, quick charging, heating
Great article, lots of stuff in here to digest.

I'm disappointed in not having a heat pump option, but being able to preheat the car battery and interior, as long as you can use wall power and not lose charge, should help offset some of the lost range as temperatures drop. Sounds like it is getting fixed, but as of now, this note regarding preheating is unfortunate:

But preheating always costs us a few percentage points of charge and thus also range. Therefore it is much more clever, if possible, to take the river [sic, electricity] directly still before the start from the Wallbox. This was also tested and the ID.3 surprised us, because it can’t do it.

We confronted VW with it – what does the manufacturer say? Quote: “The topic is well known – a solution is coming in the context of the upcoming software update”
 

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Hopefully over the next couple of months, the ID.4 First Edition owners in EU and/or US will provide some real world data to confirm or refute the 20% more range claim by VW with heat pump. Nice to hear OTA can address some of the shortcomings in the near future.
 

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Summary:
200 HP single motor RWD
Cabin temperature = 70 F with Heat Pump
Outside Temperature = 34 F
Driving Speed = 70 mph
Range = 160 miles
 

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Summary:
200 HP single motor RWD
Cabin temperature = 70 F with Heat Pump
Outside Temperature = 34 F
Driving Speed = 70 mph
Range = 160 miles
He's calculating range by just using the percentage decrease in state of charge, and I don't think that's precise enough since the percentages are rounded, etc. Consumption of 25.3 kWh/100km with a 77 kWh battery looks a whole lot like 189 mile range to me. And based on his other tests, without heat pump, then we'd probably be at 160-170 miles.
 

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Looks like the range is OK but it is not super great either. Keep in mind that it was cold and the car was on winter tires and traffic was not ideal for a range test. I doubt any of the current EVs can get significantly better result. Under normal spring/summer condition it should get at least 220 miles at 120 km/h.
 

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Discussion Starter #80
I've watched a few more German YouTube video that were released on Friday. All testers got 24 to 25 kWh/100km at highway speeds at 1 degrees Celsius (Americans: water almost freezes at that temperature). That would translate to a 190 to 200 mile freeway winter range. I had hoped it would be a bit more efficient.

For reference, TeslaBjorn recently measured 14.9 kWh/100km at 90 kmh and 20.9 kWh/100km at 120 kmh at 2 degrees Celsius for the new 2021 Tesla Model 3 LR with heat pump. I haven't seen any Tesla Model Y winter range tests.

I did see BMW iX3 (which is a not optimized ICE design with batteries, and not available in the US) tests that got about 20 kWh/100km around 10 degrees Celsius.

I really would like to see a test like CarWow's EV range test where they test a number of cars at the same time and cars leave the test whenever the battery is empty (it's like the Great British Baking Show but with cars). It would be great to see how the ID.4 performs against its competitors.
 
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