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ID.4 1st Edition Blue (acquired 4/20/2021) and ID.4 Pro/S (acquired 8/20/21)
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I know this is likely and hopefully a long way off, but how will we know and be able to ”see” battery degradation When it does occur?

It can’t be the displayed mileage on the GOM since that is based on driving variables, etc….

Will it be how far the battery can charge? Like you’ll one Day be able to only charge to a max charge less than before?

I never had a Leaf, but I think I saw that you would actually be able to see less charge lines or similar on the battery gauge.

@VW-Technician, I’d be interested in your thoughts as well as anyone else that has more than a guess.
 

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Waiting for a RWD Blue ProS w/ Light interior. Ordered Sept 4, 2021.
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I'm not worried about battery degradation for three reasons: 1) I owned a Chevy Bolt EV for three years, and suffered zero degradation. There will eventually be some, but it is more than likely a small amount after a really long time.

2) VW engineered this idea into their design. Thus, we have an 82 KWh battery being used as a 78 KWh battery, with the top end reserved for replacement of any bad cells in the lower reaches.

3) By the time there is any real impact from degradation, there will probably be "Battery Shops" nearby that can drop the tray and replace any bad cells. It might cost a $1000-2000, but these shops are already starting to appear in California.
 

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ID.4 1st Edition White / Lunar Grey
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It'll always show 100% when the calculated available capacity is fully charged.

You'll have to be a detective. Either:
- see consistent reduced range on the guess o meter
- experience actual reduction in range
- observe fewer kWh goingin on the EVSE, if equipped
- go to the dealer

I saw buried in a line of one of Andy's Vag Com data dumps the 82.xx kW battery was listed; I wonder if that line is dynamic and shows actual calculated capacity?
 

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2021 ID.4 Pro, Glacier White
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110 Posts
On the iMiEV forum, a group of 'techie' owners in France developed a Canion program from scratch - You download their program to a phone or tablet and buy a Bluetooth dongle that plugs into the port on your car and it tells you everything you ever wanted to know about your battery. The voltage on every one of the 88 cells, temperature of groups of cells, state of charge percentage and . . . . amp hour capacity of the full pack. I would be willing to bet we'll have something similar developed for the ID.4 before too long

So far as I know, all EV batteries begin to develop capacity loss pretty quickly after they're put to use. In the beginning, it's very small and only detectable with specialized equipment - I'm sure the dealers equipment can tell you. How much they lose and how quickly it goes away depends very much on how the car is treated and used. Unsold Mitsu's were eventually put on a lease program and then went to auction very cheaply after the leases were up. Most every leased car had originally sat on a dealers lot for a year to 18 months before it went to lease and nearly every one of them sat around fully charged, waiting for someone to come take a test drive - Mitsu didn't offer an 80% charge option. You could buy a nearly new leased car with very few miles (I bought one with only 3,900 miles) and the one thing they all had in common was the battery had already lost a significant portion of it's original capacity, even though they had hardly been driven. Sitting for any length of time fully charged hurts the battery - Sitting like that for weeks and months hurts it really badly. VW doesn't let us charge to the maximum allowable voltage for each cell in the pack even when we select 100% - That's what the 77Kw usable of the 82Kw is all about - It's industry standard practice to never allow recharging to max.

Mitsu did recommend that for long term storage, you should leave the car at 30% SOC, but very few of the dealers ever read that far into the owners manual

When you're not taking long trips and your usage is primarily around town, back and forth to work ect, the best practice is to recharge when you get down to 20% and then stop charging at 50 or 60% - Your battery will live a longer life if you only recharge to 80% or 100% when you really need the extra range

Don
 

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Moonstone Gray Pro S
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46 Posts
For those interested in tracking your charging and your car battery health, check to see if your community is participating in the SmartCharge Rewards Program. I did it with my previous EV and actually got paid! Unfortunately, my city is no longer in the program but yours might be.

SmartCharge Rewards
 

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tells you everything you ever wanted to know about your battery.... I would be willing to bet we'll have something similar developed for the ID.4 before too long
It already exists, see
Car Scanner ELM OBD2
that others are already using for this. I can't say much about it until I get my AWD one of these months and I will run it right away.
 

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For those interested in tracking your charging and your car battery health, check to see if your community is participating in the SmartCharge Rewards Program. I did it with my previous EV and actually got paid! Unfortunately, my city is no longer in the program but yours might be.

SmartCharge Rewards
Tracking SOH from EVSE side is completely different than what actually is delivered to battery and what was used for other accessories......and this just little things..... AC-DC Rectifier efficiency.....cable resistance losses and etc.
Without proper tools...you can only track energy used on EVSE but not battery SOH
 

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It'll always show 100% when the calculated available capacity is fully charged.

You'll have to be a detective. Either:
  • see consistent reduced range on the guess o meter
  • experience actual reduction in range
  • observe fewer kWh goingin on the EVSE, if equipped
  • go to the dealer

I saw buried in a line of one of Andy's Vag Com data dumps the 82.xx kW battery was listed; I wonder if that line is dynamic and shows actual calculated capacity?
It is protected behind firewall and you will need special access permissions to see true data....and history from birth of the pack when it was assembled and start using.
There are some unprotected data accessible via Ross-Tech.com or obdeleven.....but anything more specific it will require special access and connection to VW server to see.
If you have suspicion of big battery degradation service department can access this and print it out for you.
Some mules have exceeded 160k kilometers under heavy uses and have only 3-5% battery degradation.
Battery BMS is designed with conservative numbers on speed of charging and max current draw when used....even AWD have 30 seconds max limit propelling both propulsion units at same time.
Easiest way to check battery SOH is to stay at 3.3 miles per kWh or better and do 100-10% drive
Then see what you get at end of the drive test.
Considering this test is done in good weather conditions.
 

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ID.4 1st Edition White / Lunar Grey
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Easiest way to check battery SOH is to stay at 3.3 miles per kWh or better and do 100-10% drive
Then see what you get at end of the drive test.
Considering this test is done in good weather conditions.
I doubt most are going to be disciplined enough to carry through with this process.

I suspect most will simply notice a gradual range estimate upon completion of charge to their usual level. Of course this will always be a variable figure based on recent driving tendencies and the ambient temperature, so will result in uncertainty, and it will happen slowly over years and years until one fine summer day somebody finally realizes, "I used to see 200 to 210 at 80% and now I only ever see 170." That's kind of how it goes in the i3 community, except in that car there's a "secret menu" that gives a spitball battery capacity figure that itself can be quite volatile from day to day.
 

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Moonstone Gray Pro S
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Tracking SOH from EVSE side is completely different than what actually is delivered to battery and what was used for other accessories......and this just little things..... AC-DC Inverter efficiency.....cable resistance losses and etc.
Without proper tools...you can only track energy used on EVSE but not battery SOH
When you participate in the SmartCharge program, they supply you with an OBD device that records all the charging and battery health data.
 

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ID.4 1st Edition
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They've "reached their limit of participants" in my state. Also the pulldowns on the application are Tesla-only. :(

But Thanks anyway. (y)
For those interested in tracking your charging and your car battery health, check to see if your community is participating in the SmartCharge Rewards Program. I did it with my previous EV and actually got paid! Unfortunately, my city is no longer in the program but yours might be.

SmartCharge Rewards
 

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2021 VW iD4 1st Edition Glacier White
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168 Posts
If you don't do DC fast charging and charge to 80% regularly battery degradation will be insignificant up to 100k miles. If you do a lot of fast charging you will have more degradation, you could lose 20-30 miles of range by 100k. For a long range car like iD4 it is more of a mental issue than a real world issue.
 

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iD4 Pro Performance Max - Ordered July 2021 - Delivery December 2021 (hopefully)
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On the iMiEV forum, a group of 'techie' owners in France developed a Canion program from scratch - You download their program to a phone or tablet and buy a Bluetooth dongle that plugs into the port on your car and it tells you everything you ever wanted to know about your battery. The voltage on every one of the 88 cells, temperature of groups of cells, state of charge percentage and . . . . amp hour capacity of the full pack. I would be willing to bet we'll have something similar developed for the ID.4 before too long

So far as I know, all EV batteries begin to develop capacity loss pretty quickly after they're put to use. In the beginning, it's very small and only detectable with specialized equipment - I'm sure the dealers equipment can tell you. How much they lose and how quickly it goes away depends very much on how the car is treated and used. Unsold Mitsu's were eventually put on a lease program and then went to auction very cheaply after the leases were up. Most every leased car had originally sat on a dealers lot for a year to 18 months before it went to lease and nearly every one of them sat around fully charged, waiting for someone to come take a test drive - Mitsu didn't offer an 80% charge option. You could buy a nearly new leased car with very few miles (I bought one with only 3,900 miles) and the one thing they all had in common was the battery had already lost a significant portion of it's original capacity, even though they had hardly been driven. Sitting for any length of time fully charged hurts the battery - Sitting like that for weeks and months hurts it really badly. VW doesn't let us charge to the maximum allowable voltage for each cell in the pack even when we select 100% - That's what the 77Kw usable of the 82Kw is all about - It's industry standard practice to never allow recharging to max.

Mitsu did recommend that for long term storage, you should leave the car at 30% SOC, but very few of the dealers ever read that far into the owners manual

When you're not taking long trips and your usage is primarily around town, back and forth to work ect, the best practice is to recharge when you get down to 20% and then stop charging at 50 or 60% - Your battery will live a longer life if you only recharge to 80% or 100% when you really need the extra range

Don
VW have doubled-down on the “don’t charge to 100%“ by allowing access to 77 of the 82kWh and setting the default charge stop at 80%.
 

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On order ID4 Pro AWD
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I was told by my chemistry engineering friend (who understands lithium batteries better than me) that the simplest way is to try and keep the battery between 20-80% SOC most (>80%) of the time. When needed, you can charge to 100%, and let it get below 20% when needed, but by keeping it between 20-80% most of the time, the lithium ions will have a long & happy life, as they love being around 50% most of the time, but (paradoxically) the lithium ions also become healthier when charged to 100% every few cycles (how many cycles the battery likes this 100% charge is debated by lithium battery nerds - but if you’re not using the car very much, charging the battery to 100% once every 2-6 months might be good). Just don’t leave the battery fully charged at 100% for an extended period of time. If you’re going out of town, and not using the car for a while, leave it around 50% SOC.

Also, as others have mentioned, try to charge with level 2 most of the time, but by all means, enjoy DC fast charging when needed.

Apparently, satellites that operate on lithium batteries and are charged by solar power, are programmed to always be between 40-60% SOC. This ensures a very long (+100 year) life. But its too impractical to always keep an EV in that narrow range. Just enjoy the vehicle by keeping it between 20-80% SOC, >80% of the time. This way, the battery should last at least 15 years, without much degrading (battery holding 80% of original range). By that time, there will be affordable ways to recycle/upgrade to newer/better batteries.
 

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2021 ID.4 Pro, Glacier White
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110 Posts
VW have doubled-down on the “don’t charge to 100%“ by allowing access to 77 of the 82kWh and setting the default charge stop at 80%.
VW's "100% charge" is only charging the 82Kw battery pack to 77Kw - The 5Kw 'reserve' is actually what you get when you stop charging all 82Kw of cells at a tenth of a volt or so short of max. All EV manufacturers do a similar thing. Charging any lithium pack to it's max voltage would reduce it's life significantly

Tesla holds back even more of their packs, but they do allow some cars to charge farther into the reserve during emergencies like hurricanes or forest fires to make sure owners have enough juice to evacuate safely. Once the emergency passes, they restrict charging back to their normal reserve

Don
 

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ID.4 Pro S AWD
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177 Posts
An ID.3 Owner in Europe has completed a degradation test at exactly one year and 14,000 miles.


It has a smaller battery 58 kWh but is a good reference point.
 

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2021 ID.4 Pro, Glacier White
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110 Posts
10% in just 14,000 miles is a bit more than I would have expected, based on my long term experience with my 2012 Mitsu, but it does show that degradation begins early and highlights the importance of taking good care of your battery if you expect to own your ID.4 for the long term

Don
 

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ID.4 Pro S AWD
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177 Posts
Here is another option for your ID.4 when you receive it. This video is a paid advertisement through TFL on behalf of Recurrent but it is a free service. You get monthly reports on your battery health.

 

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Registered User
ID.4 Pro S AWD
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177 Posts
For those interested in tracking your charging and your car battery health, check to see if your community is participating in the SmartCharge Rewards Program. I did it with my previous EV and actually got paid! Unfortunately, my city is no longer in the program but yours might be.

SmartCharge Rewards
We have our 2011 LEAF on this program in Nashville. It does provide battery health at no extra cost. Our LEAF is at 85% according to SmartCharge Rewards.
 

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Registered User
2021 ID.4 Pro, Glacier White
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110 Posts
I didn't hear them giving anyone a remaining AH rating for the pack in their specific car - It sounds like they're just entering your car into a database and calculating the average degradation for similar cars in your geographic area and assuming your car is 'average', you're Fair, Good or Excellent - I don't see where it purports to tell you the exact health of the battery in your specific car . . . . or, am I missing something there?

Don
 
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