[SparkGal]

I am trying to understand and be able to plan an effective EA charging strategy.

If you understand EA charging with an ID.4, can you explain the following:

I was charging at an Ultra (150 kW) charger at a 50 kW rate. I noticed another EA charger, Hyper (350 kW), in another area of the parking lot. I moved there 4 minutes and 30 seconds later to start charging. That charger delivered only 38 kW. The short distance and ET should allow no significant change in the battery condition. It seems to me that the rate at the fast charger should have been at least equal to the rate I was getting at the slower charger.

What is the reason a 350 kW charger is slower than a 150 kW charger?

 

[Spin]

I am trying to understand and be able to plan an effective EA charging strategy.

If you understand EA charging with an ID.4, can you explain the following:

I was charging at an Ultra (150 kW) charger at a 50 kW rate. I noticed another EA charger, Hyper (350 kW), in another area of the parking lot. I moved there 4 minutes and 30 seconds later to start charging. That charger delivered only 38 kW. The short distance and ET should allow no significant change in the battery condition. It seems to me that the rate at the fast charger should have been at least equal to the rate I was getting at the slower charger.

What is the reason a 350 kW charger is slower than a 150 kW charger?

Maybe because you started the session at a higher state of charge.

 

[stevencko]

Some of the 2023 ID4’s can max out at 170 but for a very short time. The 150 Ultra chargers are perfect for the ID4. If a 150 is available and working that is the one we should choose first and leave the 350 for someone that can take advantage of the faster charging. If the 150 is not available or not working the by all means use the 350.

 

[Plant Peon]

Some of the 2023 ID4’s can max out at 170 but for a very short time.

They can go a fair bit higher than that.

 

[SparkGal]

Maybe because you started the session at a higher state of charge.

The first charging session had started at a higher charging rate than the 50 kW that I stopped it at when I noticed the Hyper station.

The second session was at the same SOC as the first session, less the tiny bit needed for the move to the Hyper station, so that session had the same or a little less SOC than the first session. The second session stayed constant between 37 and 38 kW. Is your theory that the charging rate is determined by the SOC first seen by a station, not the current SOC conditions?

My 22 ID.4 was the only EV using any of the chargers at that location. I understand that the Hyper stations should be left for those that can use them. This was just a test, and the results still confuse me, unless the charging rate is determined by the SOC first seen by a station.

It seems to me that any charging station should deliver the highest rate possible given the vehicle's request and the station's ability.

 

[Spin]

No, I was pointing out the the higher your SOC is, the slower it will charge. When you went to the second station, your SOC was obviously higher because you charged at the first station.

 

[SparkGal]

Yes, I understand that. The SOC (76%) when the second charge (@ 38 kW) started was the same SOC (76%) when I stopped the first charge (@ 50 kW).

Stated another way:
Ultra charger rate ...... 50 kW with SOC = 76%.
Hyper charger rate .... 38 kW with SOC = 76%.

I understand that SOC is a controlling factor in charge rate. My point remains; when the same SOC is presented to a more capable charger, at least the same rate of charge should be delivered.

It was not, it was lower for the same SOC at a potentially more capable charger.

I probably poorly stated the conditions in the first question. Are the conditions clearer now?

 

[Spin]

If you charged at this first charger for 4 minutes and 30 seconds at 50 kW your SOC would have increased about 2% during that time. It is not possible that you charged that long at that rate and you percentage didn't increase. The fact that your rate of charge was low on both chargers is that you started at a very high SOC.

 

[truthseeker]

Some of the 2023 ID4’s can max out at 170 but for a very short time. The 150 Ultra chargers are perfect for the ID4. If a 150 is available and working that is the one we should choose first and leave the 350 for someone that can take advantage of the faster charging. If the 150 is not available or not working the by all means use the 350.

The only one we should not use is the one with the CHAdeMO handle if there are other ones available. It happens to be a 150kW pedestal (Ultra - if you wish). All other ones are fair game.

 

[jatrax]

What is the reason a 350 kW charger is slower than a 150 kW charger?

I'm not sure anyone can really answer that unless we had access to the details at each charger. EA might be able to explain or maybe not.

The charger and car negotiate a rate based on a list of parameters that include: SOC, battery temperature, car charge max rate and maybe external temp, cable temp of the charger, time of day electric rate, peak usage rate and who know what else. Assuming that two different chargers will charge at the same rate is going to drive you nuts. It's not going to happen and without access to the decision parameters at the exact time of connection there is no way to know why or why not.

For ID.4 the 150 stations are most likely the best 'fit' even though the 2023 can charge at a higher rate. I've noticed a number of posts here and on Facebook where people stated they got a higher rate at a 150 than they did with a 350. But no scientific data, just comments, so too many variables to make a definitive statement.

 

[SparkGal]

If you charged at this first charger for 4 minutes and 30 seconds at 50 kW your SOC would have increased about 2% during that time. It is not possible that you charged that long at that rate and you percentage didn't increase. The fact that your rate of charge was low on both chargers is that you started at a very high SOC.

No, from the EA data, it took me exactly 4 minutes and 30 seconds from the end of charge at the 150 kW station to start the charge at the 350 kW station.

 

[truthseeker]

No, from the EA data, it took me exactly 4 minutes and 30 seconds from the end of charge at the 150 kW station to start the charge at the 350 kW station.

It’s within the margin of deviation. Next time, if you are already plugged in one or the other, just stay where you are unless you are getting a significantly reduced charging speed.

Personally, I wouldn’t specifically target 150kW or 350kW in the winter, as you will never get above 150 kW in the winter, but neither will any other EV (including IONIQ5 or EV6). Even the Hummer EV cannot charge above 150 kW in the winter with preheated battery. So, just use any pedestal you want except try not using the one with the CHAdeMO handle if you can help it in case a Leaf needs to get a charge.

 

[SparkGal]

I'm not sure anyone can really answer that unless we had access to the details at each charger. EA might be able to explain or maybe not.

The charger and car negotiate a rate based on a list of parameters that include: SOC, battery temperature, car charge max rate and maybe external temp, cable temp of the charger, time of day electric rate, peak usage rate and who know what else. Assuming that two different chargers will charge at the same rate is going to drive you nuts. It's not going to happen and without access to the decision parameters at the exact time of connection there is no way to know why or why not.

For ID.4 the 150 stations are most likely the best 'fit' even though the 2023 can charge at a higher rate. I've noticed a number of posts here and on Facebook where people stated they got a higher rate at a 150 than they did with a 350. But no scientific data, just comments, so too many variables to make a definitive statement.

Thanks jatrax. I had hoped someone here might know inside information. I had not seen the posts here and on Facebook where people stated they got a higher rate at a 150 than they did with a 350.

I am confident that Electrify America will not provide the parameters or their logic.

 

[SparkGal]

It’s within the margin of deviation. Next time, if you are already plugged in one or t other, just stay where you are unless you are getting a significantly reduced charging speed.

It was my test to see if 350s are better than 150s, because there were no other users at the site. I did not see that others have already done this test and seen 150's are better for ID.4s. Now I know.

 

[truthseeker]

It was my test to see if 350s are better than 150s, because there were no other users at the site. I did not see that others have already done this test and seen 150's are better for ID.4s. Now I know.

It’s not true. Thy just make things up.

 

[Spin]

No, from the EA data, it took me exactly 4 minutes and 30 seconds from the end of charge at the 150 kW station to start the charge at the 350 kW station.

So how long did you charge at the 150kW cabinet?

 

[jatrax]

It’s not true. Thy just make things up.

Not necessarily making things up. But completely unscientific anecdotal data. I have seen maybe 10 or so posts where people say they got a better charge at a 350 than a 150. I have no reason to doubt them. But just because they did get that result once, doesn't mean they would always get that result.

What I have not seen is anyone saying they get a consistently higher rate of charge on a 350 over a 150 with an ID.4. I think too many factors involved to state anything as fact at this point.

 

[truthseeker]

Not necessarily making things up. But completely unscientific anecdotal data. I have seen maybe 10 or so posts where people say they got a better charge at a 350 than a 150. I have no reason to doubt them. But just because they did get that result once, doesn't mean they would always get that result.

What I have not seen is anyone saying they get a consistently higher rate of charge on a 350 over a 150 with an ID.4. I think too many factors involved to state anything as fact at this point.

The problem is that it’s impossible to properly test it because there are so many variables. You would have to be able to time travel to be able to do a perfect test. My empirical experience is that the 350 kW charger gives me a better charging rate, but I can’t 100% prove it either.

 

[jatrax]

The problem is that it’s impossible to properly test it because there are so many variables. You would have to be able to time travel to be able to do a perfect test. My empirical experience is that the 350 kW charger gives me a better charging rate, but I can’t 100% prove it either.

I have not seen any difference but have not had mine that long. Only this month in fact, so only winter conditions. One factor might simply be that in winter no one is going to get a charge rate that uses the charger to its max.

But you are correct, too many variables. I'm not sure I could even come up with a test scenario that I would have any confidence in. And in the real world it doesn't matter what tests say only what the charger you are plugged into is doing.

 

[TidingSStables]

Since it’s EA, there’s a high probability that stall was just broken. The first time using EA with a 350 on a model Y and CCS adapter I got a whopping 7KWH on 4 different stalls at that location. They also double charged me on Apple Pay, but I called and the payment never went through. Since then I used EA only for the ID4 and on my third time charging could only get from 25% to 70% in 30 minutes.