[D3adk]

I originally wanted a Tesla Model 3 or Y but I'm so happy that the ID.4 is coming out. I feel that it beats Tesla in many areas I care about.

Utility:
- The ID.4 actually has traditional SUV proportions unlike the Model Y, which means that things like a dog crate can be placed in trunk, and Kayaks, or roof boxes can be installed on the roof. Something that just isn't easy to do on the 3 or Y due to the glass roof on the 3, and tailgate that would interfere with a box or kayak on the Y.

Satellite Radio:
- This is a feature that Tesla is missing. Might not be a big deal to some people because Tesla offers streaming services, but there's almost no cell service where I live and SiriusXM is worth every penny to me in my current car. It allows me to listen to live talk radio on my morning commute when there's no cell service for most of the drive.

Price:
- An ID.4 can be up to $17,000 cheaper than the comparable Model Y when you factor in the tax credits that are available for the ID.4 depending on which state you live in. Of course the Tesla Model Y and ID.4 are different classes of vehicles, but we all know they're still going to be cross shopped. It's too early to say but early reviews are saying that the ID.4 is built very well, something that can't be said for Tesla. Combine that with the price and I think the ID.4 is a very good value.

Winter:
- Tesla uses frameless windows and door handles that are built into the car door. There are dozens of posts about this on the internet but these door handles freeze and the frameless windows can freeze as well. You have to let the car preheat for quite awhile to open the doors in some cases. On the ID.4 it has framed windows and the door handles can still be accessed if its snowy because the button to open the door is under the lip. Seems like a genius design for EVs in a winter climate. The only thing the ID.4 is missing is a heat pump in the US, but I have a feeling VW will add it for the US based off of the backlash I've seen online. Time will tell on that one.

I'm also sure VW had snowy regions like Norway in mind for the ID.4 since the ID.4 is probably going to be a huge seller in that country due to their acceptance of EVs. (ID.3 is already the number 1 selling car there)

(Fun fact - All the wheel names are named after towns in Norway.)

Hamar Norway:

Drammen Norway:

Narvik Norway:

As a whole Tesla has the ID.4 beat in many places too, but these are the big things that matter to me and why I really think the ID.4 is a better buy than a Tesla. 250mi/400km of range isn't the best when you compare it to Tesla's range, but I rarely travel more than 250mi per day so I don't think it will be an issue aside from range anxiety. The ID.4 is still very quick too. 0-60mph in 5.8 seconds according to VW Canada. Not Tesla acceleration, but faster than a GTI. I'm sure the ID.4 will be a blast to drive.

What do you all think? Would you add anything? Or am I wrong about some things?

 

[Doctor Zaius]

A few others (vs. Model 3 or Y)

• Softer / better suspension per Out of Spec Motoring review
• Better sound-proofing
• Rear cross traffic alerts (see my prior post)
• Rear windows apparently roll all the way down (good for big dogs that like to stick head out the window)
• 3 years free charging (Electrify America)
• Federal tax credit (USA)
• Apple Carplay and Android Auto
• Glass roof has automatic cover for hot / sunny days
• Build quality (hypothetically -- though VW has had issues too)
• Better looking than Model Y (personal opinion)

Advantages for Tesla:

• Better range
• Better acceleration
• More mature U.I. / software and things like Sentry Mode, Dog Mode, etc.
• Supercharger network (better than Electrify America and will be for a while)
• Self Driving hardware (assuming lidar is not needed) with option to purchase
• White seats (I personally love them; easy to clean contrary to many concerns)

Any others?

 

[ixlr08]

I originally wanted a Tesla Model 3 or Y but I'm so happy that the ID.4 is coming out. I feel that it beats Tesla in many areas I care about.

The ID.4 is still very quick too. 0-60mph in 5.8 seconds according to VW Canada. Not Tesla acceleration, but faster than a GTI. I'm sure the ID.4 will be a blast to drive.

What do you all think? Would you add anything? Or am I wrong about some things?

Keep in mind that 0-60 time is for the 2 motor AWD version, the RWD is about 2 seconds slower to 60.

 

[ChristophW]

All good points, and most are factors in my decision to preorder an ID.4.
However, I believe the key points of price and utility and "normalcy", position the ID.4 really well to take a bite out of ICE crossover sales. Granted, there will be potential Model Y customers like myself who will buy the ID.4 instead, but hopefully we are in the minority.

I cannot wait to see how convincing the ID.4 will be for mainstream car buyers. In the meantime, it is great to see variety and innovation in the various electric crossovers coming to market. Now seems to be a critical time, and as others have posted here and elsewhere, maybe by 2024 or so we will be hard pressed to justify an ICE purchase anymore, because their value proposition will have been upended.

 

[ted99]

I think this is showing the difference between a company that is making a computer on wheels and a company that has been making cars for a long time. The door handles and the frameless windows are an example of lack of product designer knowledge acquired over many years. Tesla's designers went for glitz over practicality and that worked for boutique models like the Model S and Model X, but it's not working out so well for what they hope will be mass market vehicles in the M-Y and M-3. The "old-line" manufacturers opted for the "slope-roof" versions of their SUV's AFTER they did the traditional long roof versions and they are niche products compared to the bread and butter versions. I agree with all of the comments above and submit that they are the result of a lot of product experience acquired over the years by the old-line manufacturers. Tesla has pretty much had the market to itself for a while, now; but with the ID.4 coming on line, Tesla is about to have a come to Jesus moment. I think VW will hit it's TC phase out close to after the TN plant comes on line. And that is when VW is expecting the price to drop by $5K, so there will still be a price advantage to VW. If the Tax credits are extended, things will be different. The sweet spot for purchasers will be in 2022 when TN production comes on line for the short period before the VW TC's start to phase out. Unless, VW does a Tesla and waits to drop the price until after the TC phases out. I'm betting on this.

 

[TT97]

Tesla has always been primarily concerned with efficiency. The door handles, "frameless" windows, sloped back, wheel covering all have to do with lowering drag coefficient as much as possible. For comparison, the MY drag coefficient is 0.23 vs 0.28 for the ID.4 & 0.31 for the RAV4.

The ID.4 will take more sales out of the RAV4 & CR-V than it will from the Y.

 

[Vwvkk]

To your point on Satellite radio. Actually Tesla removed it from models with an "upgrade" along with AM radio. This and not including apple CarPlay/Android Auto I think is part of Elon's visions of having the car always be connected with it's own ecosystem. It's a way to monetize starlink eventually and also have a monetized app model. It's why I doubt he'll ever add it. I think it's very limiting. First I'm not even sure what the subscription would be and while starlink might eventually be a better option than satellite it isn't here yet fully ( I know it's started rolling out ). But CarPlay is a bigger problem. Nobody's developing apps for a Tesla right now and it doesn't make sense. People spend more times on their phones and tablets than they do in their car and it would suck to have to buy into two different ecosystems. This an Elon eccentricity that seems very limiting at the moment.

Range is an issue that concerns me however. Especially because I'm interested in the AWD and it's not published yet. However, it's a factor in resale too. It won't matter if you plan on keeping the car a long time, but otherwise it's a concern.

 

[CascadiaID4]

I too am interested in learning about the AWD range as well as OTA updates. Will range improve over time as we've seen with Tesla? Is VW under promising? Will the early adopters of the ID4 be missing heads up display, self parking, a heat pump? If they want us to spend $5k more for our SUV in late 21 rather than waiting for the TN produced vehicle in 22, it seems like they should commit to including these.

 

[ChristophW]

Will range improve over time as we've seen with Tesla? Is VW under promising?

I think they underpromise. After the recently completed Germany tour of an ID.3, with 17 kWh/100km averaged over 17,500 km and two months, you can do some math by factoring in WLTP ranges for ID.3 and ID.4. All told, we can expect an ID.4 to average 270 miles of range on those 17,500 km of German roads. This is what we all have been suspecting around here.
The EPA testing could also be more full featured and more to VW's advantage, and we don't know how much they asked the EPA to lower the number. There are possibly 20 miles here.
It is also quite feasible that VW will figure out more efficient ways to run their various systems over time, like Tesla has done, and push those out over the air. And it is also conceivable that they might "liberate" a few kWh of their spare battery capacity as they gain confidence. Again, Tesla has done this in the past, for all the same reasons. My wild guess is that those two items could add 13-20 miles of range over time.

 

[Geo]

The square back and flat roof were a big factor in my decision, I go to Home Depot a lot. The "normal" cockpit is much better for me than a single screen interface. Also like the covered glass roof.

Not too worried about charging, I'm in California. We're covered. I can easily get anywhere I'd like to drive, including Oregon and Colorado. Range is fine. I can't drive more than 3 hours without stopping, which puts me at around 200-ish miles between charges.

Price is also good, even better with the government rebates.

 

[agzand]

For their own benefit I hope VW will implement some of the awesome features of Tesla which are really easy to implement (unless their pride and ignorance prevents them from doing it). These are all very important and decisive features for any car buyer:

1) Sentry mode
2) Dog mode
3) Camping mode

There is really no justification for not having all three in the new iD4, they are just shooting themselves in the foot by not having these exactly as Tesla have implemented them.

 

[stuartm]

For their own benefit I hope VW will implement some of the awesome features of Tesla which are really easy to implement (unless their pride and ignorance prevents them from doing it). These are all very important and decisive features for any car buyer:

1) Sentry mode
2) Dog mode
3) Camping mode

There is really no justification for not having all three in the new iD4, they are just shooting themselves in the foot by not having these exactly as Tesla have implemented them.

While they might be nice they are not decisive for "any" car buyer as for example none of those are interesting to me.

 

[agzand]

While they might be nice they are not decisive for "any" car buyer as for example none of those are interesting to me.

Maybe you don't know yet that you need them. Just look at BMW resale values, they flood the market with poorly optioned lease special cars, once the lease is over no one wants a featureless used car, so they have to unload them at 80% depreciation. It is very important to have nice features so the car remains desirable once those features become industry standard.

 

[stuartm]

Sorry but I think I know what I need and don't need. Also as far as resale value goes, buying and selling cars is always a losing proposition. I learned long ago that to minimize loss buy a car and use it to the end of it's useable life is the only way to minimize the loss on a car.

 

[ixlr08]

Maybe you don't know yet that you need them. Just look at BMW resale values, they flood the market with poorly optioned lease special cars, once the lease is over no one wants a featureless used car, so they have to unload them at 80% depreciation. It is very important to have nice features so the car remains desirable once those features become industry standard.

BMW resale values are terrible because they are overpriced to start with and cost a fortune to repair after the warranty is over. I have a fully loaded X5 and it lost half it's value in 2 years. Lease cars are outfitted how the leasee wants them to be outfitted.

 

[ChristophW]

Sorry but I think I know what I need and don't need. Also as far as resale value goes, buying and selling cars is always a losing proposition. I learned long ago that to minimize loss buy a car and use it to the end of it's useable life is the only way to minimize the loss on a car.

Right on! Cars and saving money are on opposite ends of a spectrum, you have to make peace with that and then drive what makes sense to you.

 

[agzand]

I don't understand why people are defensive about copying Tesla features. It is a few lines of code, once VW programmers write it it cost 0 cents to add it to the cars and it will add value both in terms of usability and resale value to customers. If you are against these features you don't have to use them, just pretend they don't exist. But it doesn't make sense to not implement them on a modern EV which has ample power supply for these features.

 

[TimD]

Sorry but I think I know what I need and don't need. Also as far as resale value goes, buying and selling cars is always a losing proposition. I learned long ago that to minimize loss buy a car and use it to the end of it's useable life is the only way to minimize the loss on a car.

Right! I'm continuing to hold on to the 2012 Prius Plug-in I bought 8 1/2 years ago. Given the price premium for the plug-in model, my cost of ownership has probably been about the same as a regular Prius. I stopped thinking about its depreciation 4 or 5 years ago.

 

[stuartm]

I don't understand why people are defensive about copying Tesla features. It is a few lines of code, once VW programmers write it it cost 0 cents to add it to the cars and it will add value both in terms of usability and resale value to customers. If you are against these features you don't have to use them, just pretend they don't exist. But it doesn't make sense to not implement them on a modern EV which has ample power supply for these features.

You misunderstand. I don't care if they copy Tesla features. I was responding to your assertion that they are features that anybody would want. I don't care about those particular features. Also, you are sadly mistaken in thinking that there is zero cost to adding the code for those features. On top of the code development costs there is an addition to the test matrix for each feature going forward, each additional feature definitely adds ongoing test and maintenance costs. (I know quite a bit about these things as I have been a software engineer for more than 40 years) Those costs are going to be passed on to the customers, (TANSTAAFL).