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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
In Sandy Munro's latest teardown of the Mach-E hood, it's clear what we gained on ID.4 from giving up a frunk.

ID.4
3883


Mach-E
3884



Added complexity of Engineering having to deal with the frunk insert was certainly expected, but all the hoses on the Mach-e does look pretty bad. All those connections and tubes are certainly a reliability risk.

Sandy even tried his hand at acting to illustrate the point. :cool:

 

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I've never understood the obsession with frunks anyway. The separate safety requirement to unlatch a frunk before opening makes it annoying to use for commonly accessed items. I guess its a better place to store your L1 EVSE cable than under the floor of the trunk, but I'll hardly ever use my L1 EVSE now that I have an L2 installed at home. I already preferred the shorter hood of the ID.4 for aesthetic and visibility reasons, but its interesting to see the more straightforward thermal system of the ID.4 as well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
did he end it by saying its better than the ID4?
Haha. He actually did. I hadn't watched the whole video until seeing your question. He said..."I can tell you for sure that this is better than the ID.4" at the 11:52 mark.

I enjoy watching Sandy's videos regardless of his comments, but he does seem biased against VW.
 

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ID.4 Pro S Gradient AWD pre-ordered 9/23/2020
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I've never understood the obsession with frunks anyway. The separate safety requirement to unlatch a frunk before opening makes it annoying to use for commonly accessed items. I guess its a better place to store your L1 EVSE cable than under the floor of the trunk, but I'll hardly ever use my L1 EVSE now that I have an L2 installed at home. I already preferred the shorter hood of the ID.4 for aesthetic and visibility reasons, but its interesting to see the more straightforward thermal system of the ID.4 as well.
I agree, I don't understand the obsession over a frunk, either. I had an i3 with a frunk, even contemplated getting an affordable weather-proof version of the insert to make it more usable. Never bothered as what's the point when you have a very usable rear cargo area 🤷‍♂️ Plus, the ID.4's L1 EVSE fits in the side compartment in the hatch, which makes it very accessible even when the hatch is full.
 

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VW ID.4 1st (picked up 3/19/21).
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I agree, I don't understand the obsession over a frunk, either. I had an i3 with a frunk, even contemplated getting an affordable weather-proof version of the insert to make it more usable.
The frunk on a Ford F150 lightning seems quite useful. A space that is only big enough for a beer cooler seems like a gimmick to me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I was confused by the comment, as well. It did seem like he thinks the Mach-E setup is better than the ID.4's.
Since he didn't explain his reasoning, we will have to guess. I'm assuming it's just related to him not liking that VW didn't include a frunk...which is a point he's made multiple times in other videos. What's strange is that his whole business is about design simplification for cost and quality improvement. Anyone who looks at those two images (ID.4 underhood vs. Mach-E underhood with frunk removed) would know which design is simpler and less prone to failures.
 

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The frunk on a Ford F150 lightning seems quite useful. A space that is only big enough for a beer cooler seems like a gimmick to me.
Agreed, that thing is massive and I can absolutely see how it could be quite useful. It's essentially another trunk.
 

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I can see foregoing the "frunk" if instead we just had a dedicated cutout for the tire repair kit, EVSE, and maybe a jack.

I love my frunk on my other car. I keep my EVSE and cord there, access it almost daily to plug in at work. If it's wet, no worries. If I have the cargo area full of stuff, no worries. And I can absolutely toss a bit of ice in there, a few drinks, it wouldn't bother the EVSE and cord, and I've got some trailhead post-ride refreshments.

I am going to find a way to securely store the EVSE in the dead space under the ID.4's hood. The space under the cargo floor is too valuable for other useless junk.
 

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OK, but technically we DO have a dedicated cutout for the repair kit and EVSE. You just wanna use it for other stuff.
The biggest issue though is that the current place for the repair kit and EVSE could potentially be under a bunch of heavy cargo, and having to move tons of cargo out of the trunk in order to access a tire repair kit or spare tire while in the middle of a long trip is NOT fun, I can tell you from experience...
 

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The biggest issue though is that the current place for the repair kit and EVSE could potentially be under a bunch of heavy cargo, and having to move tons of cargo out of the trunk in order to access a tire repair kit or spare tire while in the middle of a long trip is NOT fun, I can tell you from experience...
That was my experience about a month ago when my wife picked up a cartoonishly fat bolt during a Costco excursions.

I'm just suggesting that if there is free "utility space" available in a utility area of the vehicle, take advantage of it.

On my i3, the battery-only model that doesn't have the gasoline generator (aka "REX"), the space that it would otherwise occupy over the rear axle is empty under the floor of the trunk. A guy in Germany came up with a "trunk extension" that adds 35 liters of very usable, out is the way storage. The ID.4 needs something similar (obviously not as voluminous) under the hood.
 

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Mach e designers didnt spend a second on tidying the mess under the frunk because its not visable. ID.4 on the other hand looks really good structured.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Mach e designers didnt spend a second on tidying the mess under the frunk because its not visable. ID.4 on the other hand looks really good structured.
Sure, it's not the beauty that matters, but it's the number of hoses and clamps that stood out to me on the Mach-E. More constraints almost always results in design complexity. For me, it would have been nice to have a frunk, but I'm still satisfied with the provided space in the vehicle and if the choice was reliability or frunk, I would always choose reliability. As far as Ford not caring how it looks given the mess is hidden, that's a company culture thing. Some companies would care.
 

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I was confused by the comment, as well. It did seem like he thinks the Mach-E setup is better than the ID.4's.
What seemed odd to me was how he made that comment shortly after making the video about the motor and inverter on the ID.4 -- which he was very impressed with. Contrast that with the Mach E, where he hated (at least from the exterior) the design of the motor and inverter. His sole complaint about the motor/inverter on the ID.4 was the number of screws, but the Mach E had that same issue. In particular, VW managed to eliminate the cooling pump on the motor, whereas the Mach E has two (four total)! As such, the odd statement about "better than the ID.4" seems even further out of place, since he just talked about the great design of the ID.4's motor and cooling system (though, granted, we didn't see the hoses on the ID.4).

I will say, the Mach E had a front engine, that would have been an AWD, and we will see how the ID.4 will look with the front motor installed. Regardless, I suspect it has to look (and be) much simpler than the Mach E. Munro's offhanded remark did not make sense, particularly in context, but does seem to be related to the lack of frunk -- which makes the comment really seem like "hate" since the frunk had nothing to do with the video he was making.
 

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As such, the odd statement about "better than the ID.4" seems even further out of place, since he just talked about the great design of the ID.4's motor and cooling system (though, granted, we didn't see the hoses on the ID.4).
Here is my view as a former automotive manufacturing and controls systems engineer. I have been a witness to several automotive teardowns while in industry - both external and internal.

Munro performs external teardowns. That is, external to any particular automaker. External teardowns are inherently limited because Munro does not have the intimate knowledge of the internal product lifecycles associated with VW and Ford (or any other automaker). Quite simply, Munro was "not in the room", literally and figuratively, when the discussions of undoubtedly millions of tradeoffs were made in the design of a particular system or subsystem.

External teardowns are limited to the following:
  1. Direct comparisons of discrete subsystems in competing vehicles using definable engineering metrics (for example, measuring performance of a few competing motor designs on a test bench); and
  2. A ROM (rough order of magnitude) on the BOM (bill of material) costs associated with vehicle design; and
  3. Obvious quality issues.
That is it.

Munro is going far beyond this scope in a vast majority of his videos - which he cannot possibly do competently.

Munro's experience largely revolves around the Lean process, so he will instinctively look for what he perceives as "waste", but again, how can he possibly know what the internal discussions were inside of each automaker?

He cannot.

That makes his criticisms of Ford's design without a technical foundation.

Lastly, on the ID.4 "motor teardown" video it is abundantly clear that Munro has zero competence in electromechanical assemblies. That was pretty painful to watch as an electrical engineer. Basic terminology escaped him throughout and, for example, he criticized the number of screws on components because he does not understand how screws dampen electromagnetic resonance in high-frequency switching applications.

Sincerely,

Adam J. Cook

EDIT: Spelling issue.
 

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In Sandy Munro's latest teardown of the Mach-E hood, it's clear what we gained on ID.4 from giving up a frunk.

ID.4
View attachment 3883

Mach-E
View attachment 3884


Added complexity of Engineering having to deal with the frunk insert was certainly expected, but all the hoses on the Mach-e does look pretty bad. All those connections and tubes are certainly a reliability risk.

Sandy even tried his hand at acting to illustrate the point. :cool:

I watched the video and was shocked by that mess hidden by the Mach-Es frunk. Sandy doesn't even notice that the ID.4 has a hood half the length of other EVs with huge frunks.
 

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I watched the video and was shocked by that mess hidden by the Mach-Es frunk. Sandy doesn't even notice that the ID.4 has a hood half the length of other EVs with huge frunks.
Well...Munro never elaborated why he thinks the ID.4 is inferior in regards to the under-the-hood layout. All we know is what he said in the ID.4 videos and he only mentioned, in a passing comment, that he didn't like "all of the stuff" in front of the firewall. Opinions rendered without evidence can be dismissed without evidence as far as I'm concerned. What we do know, however, is that Munro is an ex-Ford employee and an Elon Musk acolyte with a YouTube channel propped-up almost entirely by Muskovites. Munro isn't a serious person as far as I'm concerned given his extremely obvious bias.
 
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