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Discussion Starter #1
I am weighing these two options.
I searched the board for posts mentioning RAV4 Prime and only came across a couple, one of which described it as lugging around an ICE engine that you will rarely use, and I initially agreed. But assume you are the average american who drives <40 miles a day. When you think about it, with the ID4 you are lugging around 75% extra battery that you rarely use! And if I'm going to lug around something, it might as well be something that has unlimited range on the rare days I do drive >40 miles, and can generate heat in these Minnesota winters.
I am very pro EV - I currently drive an eGolf. I love the quiet, the instant torque, the low maintenance. But the car has made me swear to myself that I will never buy a VW (lots of rattles, issues with A/C). I only retracted this oath when I saw the ID4.
I'm curious if others are on the fence between these two.
 

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The RAV4 Prime was my second choice after the ID.4. I just like the techy things a little bit more with the ID.4 and the price is cheaper for me as I would want the RAV4 Prime XSE. I do have some reservations of buying a VW instead of a Toyota as I just had a Prius for the last 6 years and it was very dependable, but the ID.4 is the first car that has really caught my eye and made me think, “I must have that!”
 

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2021 VW ID.4 1st, Dusk Blue
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I am weighing these two options.
I searched the board for posts mentioning RAV4 Prime and only came across a couple, one of which described it as lugging around an ICE engine that you will rarely use, and I initially agreed. But assume you are the average american who drives <40 miles a day. When you think about it, with the ID4 you are lugging around 75% extra battery that you rarely use! And if I'm going to lug around something, it might as well be something that has unlimited range on the rare days I do drive >40 miles, and can generate heat in these Minnesota winters.
I am very pro EV - I currently drive an eGolf. I love the quiet, the instant torque, the low maintenance. But the car has made me swear to myself that I will never buy a VW (lots of rattles, issues with A/C). I only retracted this oath when I saw the ID4.
I'm curious if others are on the fence between these two.
I think from my point of view, a full EV doesn’t have tailpipe emissions whereas a PHEV will kick the engine on when under load when it is cold and will create even more pollution than a regular ICE car. If you are able to drive carefully and not use the ICE except on long trips you might have a good choice.
 

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Happy owner of a blue ID.4 FE
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Before I decided to go fully electric for my next car I looked long and hard at plug-in hybrids. What turns me off, apart from emissions, is the dual drivetrain with possibly more items that need maintenance and repair than a simple gasoline car. It’s not the lugging around of a gas engine.
 

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ID.4 1st Edition
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I see hybrid vehicles as i do (did) plasma TV's - a stop gap product, in this case until fully electric technology was more readily available/cost effective.

A hybrid requires just as much gas engine maintenance as any other ICE vehicle and then add the EV stuff to the mix.

I'm looking forward to far fewer maintenance items on a pure EV ID.4

Before I decided to go fully electric for my next car I looked long and hard at plug-in hybrids. What turns me off, apart from emissions, is the dual drivetrain with possibly more items that need maintenance and repair than a simple gasoline car. It’s not the lugging around of a gas engine.
 

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I've been driving a PHEV for the past 3 years and like it a lot. Almost all our driving is local except for the occasional trip out of town to our cabin or to see outstate family. But I agree with Huey52 that it is a transitional product until full electrics have a comparable range to ICE cars. The ID.4 is close. Our cabin is 240 miles away and the ID.4's range is 250 - so range anxiety is real. Not an issue with my PHEV. Still - no tailpipe emissions at all and minimal maintenance has me considering the switch to ID.4... or Ariya... or Ioniq 5... or....
 

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3 plus years over two Honda Clarity PHEV, I have been pretty happy with them, nice ride, comfortable cabin. They used the $60k hydrogen cabin for the PHEV ($60k seemed like more 3 years ago). After gov and Honda incentives, the one I own now was something like $26k total. When I was doing more business / family driving trips, it was fantastic to fill up in 5 minutes and be on my way, while otherwise driving almost all EV. It can charge itself, so where some have speculated better performance with some Battery range remaining, if you forget, it is easy enough to do a small "in flight" battery fill. It's a little quirky with the permutations of modes, fun for me, less so for others.

Also, it is LOT easier to go BEV carefree when a family has two or more cars.

That said, I'm going to try it again now, to go BEV with one car, just because it is the next thing to try.
 

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VW ID.4 1st (picked up 3/19/21).
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I've been driving a PHEV for the past 3 years and like it a lot. Almost all our driving is local except for the occasional trip out of town to our cabin or to see outstate family. But I agree with Huey52 that it is a transitional product until full electrics have a comparable range to ICE cars. The ID.4 is close. Our cabin is 240 miles away and the ID.4's range is 250 - so range anxiety is real. Not an issue with my PHEV. Still - no tailpipe emissions at all and minimal maintenance has me considering the switch to ID.4... or Ariya... or Ioniq 5... or....
My main use case was to be able to make it to/from DC without needing to stop and charge along the way, and ~250 range works for that (taking into account using 80/20 on the battery and winter range reduction).

If there is a charger along the way (esp if it is >=100kW), a quick charging stop partway gets you to 250miles with no anxiety. It is oftentimes easy to combine quick charging stops with a biologic break and getting a snack.
 

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My 2008 Prius and my 2012 Prius Plug-in have been extremely reliable, as have all the Toyotas I’ve owned in my lifetime. In 2020, I put my name on a dealer’s waitlist for a RAV4 Prime, supposedly sold at sticker price. But then the ID.4 caught my eye, and I told myself it’s probably time to go full electric. I still need to convince myself I won’t mind the inconvenience of charging in LA or Palm Springs (the two place I drive from San Diego). Today, with my Prius Plug-in, I can do those two roundtrips without refueling.
 

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I just sold my second PHEV because a second car was just not necessary, now. The remaining PHEV has about 21 mi EV range and serves 100% of my local use (90% pre C-19). When I add back a second car, it'll be a full EV. I, too, consider the PHEV to be a transitional vehicle and the ideal single car--EV around town, ICE on trips. I also think that anyone with contemplated 200+ mi trips should have one, over an EV, until EV range reaches a 500 mi target and charging infrastructure supports more than Interstate bread-crumb trails. Five years?

I'm frequently challenged by my assertion of a need of 500 mi range and I justify it by saying that escaping an extra two hours on a day for charging requires that one only need to make a mid-day stop for charging. If one limits oneself to an 80% charge for quickest charging times, that is 400 miles. Add in a 50 mi cushion for when a charger is broken or unavailable and one needs to go to the next station leaves 350 miles. That's a 700 mile day, which I frequently do on Interstates (absent construction delays). How long to get there? Recent experience has range doubling every 3 years. So, 250 miles in 2021. 500 miles in 2024--about the time solid-state batteries make their appearance. Meanwhile, we will have continued improvement in range from incremental improvements in Li0N chemistry and form factor.

My conclusion: a PHEV, today, is the safe choice for the next 3 years for the single-car use.
 

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ID.4 ProS Gradient Dusk Blue Somewhere on the Gulf?
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I just sold my second PHEV because a second car was just not necessary, now. The remaining PHEV has about 21 mi EV range and serves 100% of my local use (90% pre C-19). When I add back a second car, it'll be a full EV. I, too, consider the PHEV to be a transitional vehicle and the ideal single car--EV around town, ICE on trips. I also think that anyone with contemplated 200+ mi trips should have one, over an EV, until EV range reaches a 500 mi target and charging infrastructure supports more than Interstate bread-crumb trails. Five years?

I'm frequently challenged by my assertion of a need of 500 mi range and I justify it by saying that escaping an extra two hours on a day for charging requires that one only need to make a mid-day stop for charging. If one limits oneself to an 80% charge for quickest charging times, that is 400 miles. Add in a 50 mi cushion for when a charger is broken or unavailable and one needs to go to the next station leaves 350 miles. That's a 700 mile day, which I frequently do on Interstates (absent construction delays). How long to get there? Recent experience has range doubling every 3 years. So, 250 miles in 2021. 500 miles in 2024--about the time solid-state batteries make their appearance. Meanwhile, we will have continued improvement in range from incremental improvements in Li0N chemistry and form factor.

My conclusion: a PHEV, today, is the safe choice for the next 3 years for the single-car use.
I'm not entirely sure that Moore's Law applies to Battery technology. There will be bumps and surges, but to a large degree we are dealing with a very mature technology. Over time it may be a doubling every 3 years, but the window over that time will not be linear.
 

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VW ID.4 1st (picked up 3/19/21).
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I'm not entirely sure that Moore's Law applies to Battery technology. There will be bumps and surges, but to a large degree we are dealing with a very mature technology. Over time it may be a doubling every 3 years, but the window over that time will not be linear.
The problem is that batteries are both heavy and expensive, and that the tax rebates won't last forever. If some new battery technology comes along, they may choose to maintain 250-300 mile range with a smaller, lighter and cheaper battery pack, and that would help them meet price targets needed to attract ICE drivers. And newer batteries might have higher peak charging rates, which make stopping to charge less of a nuisance.

What will also happen is that the charging networks will fill out and become more robust.
 

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Recent experience has range doubling every 3 years. So, 250 miles in 2021. 500 miles in 2024
Three years ago was early 2018. At that point, we had the 200+ mile Bolt and some 300+ mile Teslas.

Three years later, we don't have 400+ mile Bolts and 600+ mile Teslas. Battery/range improvements happen much more slowly.
 

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This is the question for me. I have long been on the RAV4 Prime "list" and was even offered one in a color I didn't want. A PHEV is certainly a compromise, but offers range advantages. I could easily perform my "around town" errands electrically, especially with a home charger, which would pretty much take care of my needs. Toyota's proven drive train and reliability is a huge plus, as confirmed by my experience with four Tacomas. However, I am put off by the black interior and questions about seat comfort, which is a key requirement for my wife and I after numerous orthopedic surgeries. (Toyota styling is also an issue, although the RAV4 has avoided the brunt of it.) The ID.4 then appeared with an attractive design and two heated power seats. I ordered one shortly after and follow the trickle of information from Volkswagen with interest. I remain undecided, especially since we hardly drive at all due to Covid, and certainly do not need to continue with two vehicles. Questions, questions...
 

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This is the question for me. I have long been on the RAV4 Prime "list" and was even offered one in a color I didn't want. A PHEV is certainly a compromise, but offers range advantages. I could easily perform my "around town" errands electrically, especially with a home charger, which would pretty much take care of my needs. Toyota's proven drive train and reliability is a huge plus, as confirmed by my experience with four Tacomas. However, I am put off by the black interior and questions about seat comfort, which is a key requirement for my wife and I after numerous orthopedic surgeries. (Toyota styling is also an issue, although the RAV4 has avoided the brunt of it.) The ID.4 then appeared with an attractive design and two heated power seats. I ordered one shortly after and follow the trickle of information from Volkswagen with interest. I remain undecided, especially since we hardly drive at all due to Covid, and certainly do not need to continue with two vehicles. Questions, questions...
I'm also turned off by the RAV4 Prime's black interior, and the limited exterior colors. And it sort of looks like it's jacked up too high. But it seems better than any other PHEV on the market right now. I think the ID.4 looks better.
 

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I have been in the exact position.....however, I hear the Rav4 has a stiffer or harder ride and has a noisier or loud noise upon acceleration ....not that inviting a cabin, but everything else is very attractive.
 

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I'm also turned off by the RAV4 Prime's black interior, and the limited exterior colors. And it sort of looks like it's jacked up too high. But it seems better than any other PHEV on the market right now. I think the ID.4 looks better.
I agree on liking the exterior looks of the ID.4 over the RAV4 Prime. Also, absolutely impossible to get a RAV4 Prime in South Carolina. At least I was able to order the ID.4 to be delivered to my local dealer sometime this year! Also, in many cases dealerships are asking way over MSRP for the RAV4 Prime. The ID.4 would actually be a cheaper alternative, after applying the Fed tax credit. I ordered my ID.4 with the lunar gray interior ... so it was nice to have a different choice, other than black.
 

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Three years ago was early 2018. At that point, we had the 200+ mile Bolt and some 300+ mile Teslas.

Three years later, we don't have 400+ mile Bolts and 600+ mile Teslas. Battery/range improvements happen much more slowly.
I am using BMW as my benchmark and two of their vehicles that are using the same physical size and location of their battery packs for reference. BMW has also had a policy of using distinct new battery generations as their PHEV/EV offerings have advanced. I have no idea if GM actually used improving battery technology in the Bolt, and I wonder if anyone knows the changing capacity of Tesla's individual cell over time, which is an apples to apples measure. It's hard to make comparisons between Tesla models because of the many sizes of battery packs.

The 2017 BMW i3 had an initial battery capacity of 60 KWH and the 2020 was 120 KWH. The 2018 BMW 330e had a battery capacity of 7KWH and the 2021 is 12KWH.

I agree that manufacturers will turn their attention to weight reduction over range increases once 500 miles is reached. And, I also agree that manufacturers will offer something like a 250 mi range battery pack at lower cost for those people that don't see a need for greater range. I also agree that increasing charging speeds will make it easier for people to select a shorter range for lower cost when their need for long trips is only occasional.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
The RAV4 Prime was my second choice after the ID.4. I just like the techy things a little bit more with the ID.4 and the price is cheaper for me as I would want the RAV4 Prime XSE. I do have some reservations of buying a VW instead of a Toyota as I just had a Prius for the last 6 years and it was very dependable, but the ID.4 is the first car that has really caught my eye and made me think, “I must have that!”
Which tech-y things in particular?
 

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Which tech-y things in particular?
The ID.Light, the two screens, the way the car sort of greets you. I guess I like the fun add-ons that make everything seem a little more personal and "futuristic".
 
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