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What's maybe more important is what's not said.

There's already a commitment in Norway in order to qualify for grants. There may be something similar brewing in Germany. But the Model 3 is using CCS there, so I imagine that severely uncomplicated matters

In the US Tesla had offered the supercharger network to auto makers who want to subsidize it. So is he writing about an agreement or two coming to fruition, or is his statement in regards to something broader?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
What's maybe more important is what's not said.

There's already a commitment in Norway in order to qualify for grants. There may be something similar brewing in Germany. But the Model 3 is using CCS there, so I imagine that severely uncomplicated matters

In the US Tesla had offered the supercharger network to auto makers who want to subsidize it. So is he writing about an agreement or two coming to fruition, or is his statement in regards to something broader?
He replies in a tweet later that it'd be worldwide. They may just make money selling adaptors 😂
 

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"If" is such a big word. It is possible in Europe where CCS is mandated but I rather doubt the likelihood in the US. Maybe in California if he can get the US government to fund the cost.
 

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In the US Tesla had offered the supercharger network to auto makers who want to subsidize it. So is he writing about an agreement or two coming to fruition, or is his statement in regards to something broader?
It is always hard to tell with Musk as he usually makes highly vague statements, unsupportable timelines and constantly throws up trial balloons, but I think that the only way he would open up the Tesla Supercharger network in the US market is if:

1. Any upcoming US federal monies directed towards EV charging infrastructure has hard requirements that a network be "open" (as there should be, in my view); and/or
2. A competing automaker made a specific deal with Tesla.

For #2, I am getting distinct Tesla "open source patent" (which were anything but) vibes from this Tweet. It was naively assumed that Tesla "open sourcing" its patents was an altruistic move to accelerate BEV platform implementations at competing automakers and Musk's Tweet seems to have similar undertones given the content of the Tweet he replied to.

In my view, competing automakers will be reluctant to partner with Tesla specifically given his highly confrontational attitude towards them in the past and the fear in competing automaker boardrooms that they would be seen as capitulating to Tesla.

Just my two cents...

Sincerely,

Adam J. Cook
 

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It is always hard to tell with Musk as he usually makes highly vague statements, unsupportable timelines and constantly throws up trial balloons, but I think that the only way he would open up the Tesla Supercharger network in the US market is if:

1. Any upcoming US federal monies directed towards EV charging infrastructure has hard requirements that a network be "open" (as there should be, in my view); and/or
2. A competing automaker made a specific deal with Tesla.

For #2, I am getting distinct Tesla "open source patent" (which were anything but) vibes from this Tweet. It was naively assumed that Tesla "open sourcing" its patents was an altruistic move to accelerate BEV platform implementations at competing automakers and Musk's Tweet seems to have similar undertones given the content of the Tweet he replied to.

In my view, competing automakers will be reluctant to partner with Tesla specifically given his highly confrontational attitude towards them in the past and the fear in competing automaker boardrooms that they would be seen as capitulating to Tesla.

Just my two cents...

Sincerely,

Adam J. Cook
Norway started to crack the walled garden when they told Tesla a closed network is ineligible for public infrastructure funds. With US considering massive spending on public charging, Elon must want a piece of that. After all, Tesla owners are part of the public and deserve some benefit as well.

It has been mentioned Aptera is wanting to use T plugs, so that could be what he is referring to, but it seems more likely public funding might be the driver.

V4 SuperChargers are starting to make news. Maybe the plan is to install T + CCS on these new units. If so, public funding would be available, and the CCS network operators might be willing to follow EVGo's lead and add T plugs to their units.

Whatever the outcome, open networks and more availability will be a critical need for all EV owners as adoption grows. This us and them mentality doesn't help attract new owners.
 

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Norway started to crack the walled garden when they told Tesla a closed network is ineligible for public infrastructure funds. With US considering massive spending on public charging, Elon must want a piece of that. After all, Tesla owners are part of the public and deserve some benefit as well.

It has been mentioned Aptera is wanting to use T plugs, so that could be what he is referring to, but it seems more likely public funding might be the driver.

V4 SuperChargers are starting to make news. Maybe the plan is to install T + CCS on these new units. If so, public funding would be available, and the CCS network operators might be willing to follow EVGo's lead and add T plugs to their units.
I agree that the possibility of public funding might be the prime driver here here in the US. I hope that any public funding criteria in the US also demand that charging networks have standardized and open software interfaces as well (i.e. charging station availability, ISO 15118 Plug-And-Charge, any additional on-site charging data while the vehicle is charging).

Whatever the outcome, open networks and more availability will be a critical need for all EV owners as adoption grows. This us and them mentality doesn't help attract new owners.
I could not agree more.

Sincerely,

Adam J. Cook
 

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Investments are flowing into SuperCharger alternatives worldwide. EA, Charge Poiont, EVGo are expanding at a combined pace faster than Tesla (the benefit of a standard interface). Telsa may be entering negotiations in an attempt to slow expansion of fast charge competitors. Would a major OEM really want to fund Tesla's network versus the open alternative?
 

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I agree that the possibility of public funding might be the prime driver here here in the US. I hope that any public funding criteria in the US also demand that charging networks have standardized and open software interfaces as well (i.e. charging station availability, ISO 15118 Plug-And-Charge, any additional on-site charging data while the vehicle is charging).
I don't think P&C is necessarily a requirement for public funding. If you watch Kyle Connor's recent FL > CO ID4 trip, he raves about EA and ID4, of course without P&C. Yet, he is a Tesla fan at the core, so he apparently finds the app based activation on EA to be adequate. Sure, would be nice, but not critical.

Standard interfaces (universal CCS adoption presumably) isn't necessary. Would it make things easier? Sure. But if Tesla added CCS to their sites, and CCS networks added native Tesla plugs to theirs, would that really be much different than Diesel + Gas being universally available?
Would a major OEM really want to fund Tesla's network versus the open alternative?
Nope, not unless it was to add CCS ports to new sites. With CCS site growth catching up to, or exceeding Tesla sites in many areas (already 2:1 or 3:1 in some parts), the CCS open standard is likely to be the dominant one in the near future. It probably makes zero sense for any major OEM to consider T plugs at this point. Aptera is considering using T plugs, but then they are unlikely to become a major player.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)

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Elon has a reputation for being overly optimistic on timelines, but he doesn't make stuff up. If he said it, its something they're actively working on.
Certainly, Musk can never deliver driverless "robotaxis" on existing Tesla vehicles as he has repeatedly promised since 2015 - as that is clearly impossible given the physical environment gaps in the sensor suite on Tesla vehicles (at minimum). It is very difficult to believe, in my view, that Tesla and him have not since long realized that despite it remaining a core part of their marketing.

Thankfully, though, opening up Tesla Superchargers to other EVs is absolutely trivial compared to that. ;)

Sincerely,

Adam J. Cook
 

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I don't think P&C is necessarily a requirement for public funding. If you watch Kyle Connor's recent FL > CO ID4 trip, he raves about EA and ID4, of course without P&C. Yet, he is a Tesla fan at the core, so he apparently finds the app based activation on EA to be adequate. Sure, would be nice, but not critical.
I have watched (and enjoyed) Kyle's assessments on the ID.4.

And although I do agree that Plug-And-Charge availability is not strictly necessary (To date, I have used the Electrify America app with zero issues), I do believe that is substantially encourages ICE-to-BEV adoption, particularly in groups of car buyers that are less "tech-savy" and those who have not followed the latest BEV industry developments.

In the abstract, what I am hoping that is prevented here (should public money be utilized) are, particularly for current/future charging networks that are owned by EV automakers (i.e. Tesla, Rivian, Porsche), seemingly public and open charging networks that are explicitly designed to treat competitor vehicles as "second class citizens" in order to drive future sales.

That is pretty much going to break any actual cooperation between EV manufacturers from the get-go in my view and slow EV adoption.

Standard interfaces (universal CCS adoption presumably) isn't necessary. Would it make things easier? Sure. But if Tesla added CCS to their sites, and CCS networks added native Tesla plugs to theirs, would that really be much different than Diesel + Gas being universally available?
I agree.

Sincerely,

Adam J. Cook
 

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Read with interest the suggestion "Tesla's opening up of their chargers to non-tesla cars" ! ... my 2p's worth ....

CCS - Being in the UK / Europe, we are over the first hurdle of Type2/CCS connection standardisation, it's pretty now much the standard in Europe, all pillar type chargers and lamppost connections in the UK are Type 2 (i've never seen a street based Type 1 charger in 7000miles of EV ownership), Nissan Leaf & Renault Zoe owners (which have type 1) have to carry adaptors/cables to suit, and ChadaMo (a type 1 hybrid upto 50kw DC) is going to become defunct, not many users compared to CCS. I can see this going the same way as VHS / Betamax - CCS/Type 2 has already won, even Nissan/Renault who previously used type 1 - have changed new production to Type 2 / CCS for European cars.

Cost - In the UK we have a "patchy" charging network, made up of well over 20 providers, some are OK, some are really bad, finding chargers can be a challenge, if you don't plan your journey well, costs vary from Free (for slow charging, funded by shops who host them etc), others reasonable at 25p/kw some can be very expensive Ionity 70p/Kw !. Every time I pass a bank of Tesla Superchargers at Motorway service stations - they are mostly over 50% empty, potential for some revenue generation by the sale of KW's !

Cable length - this is something that some UK/European news stories are querying - the Tesla superchargers have a very SHORT charger cable - this works for some EV's but not others - this could be the next hurdle ! The ID.4 has it's charger port on the rear right (UK drivers side), Tesla on the rear left (opposite), I could see this as an issue if it doesn't reach - either having to occupy 2 bays, or charging from the adjacent charger (but not parked in the bay in front of it) !
 

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The J1772 connector standard was well underway before Tesla created their own connector. Nothing special about Tesla's connector, they just wanted to be unique. Some test data shows the J1772 supports higher sustained charge rates in any case.
 
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