Volkswagen ID Forum banner
1 - 20 of 30 Posts

·
Registered User
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
First to start out I completely understand wire size is the limitation to the amperage. You would not try to pull 20 amp from a 15 amp wired circuit. I believe this is the limitation due to liability issues associated with the amp draw. The max charger I have found for level 1 is 16 amps and works well with my ID 4. I am charging the car with a solar system which is limited to 110v with high amps. The question can Level 1 chargers or the car accept higher amp draw beyond16 amps at 110v.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
5,516 Posts
Most relatively new construction in the USA these days is 20A receptacles with 15A lighting. Yes, both a limitation of the wiring and the circuit breaker.

The ID.4 won't typically attempt to pull more but to be on the safe side in an older wiring home be sure to use the designated amperage lowering setting in the Infotainment charging setup screen.

As I've not actually L1 charged on my 20A garage circuit I'll let others better answer your question.
 

·
Registered User
Joined
·
476 Posts
Most relatively new construction in the USA these days is 20A receptacles with 15A lighting. Yes, both a limitation of the wiring and the circuit breaker.

The ID.4 won't typically attempt to pull more but to be on the safe side in an older wiring home be sure to use the designated amperage lowering setting in the Infotainment charging setup screen.

As I've not actually L1 charged on my 20A garage circuit I'll let others better answer your question.
For a long, long time with my Volt, I only charged with the Level 1 EVSE that came with the vehicle. It (by default) charged at 12 Amps but you could manually step it down to 8 Amps. It was plugged into a 5-15R receptacle on a 20 Amp GFCI-protected circuit. Eventually, the 5-15R receptacle started looking burnt so I replaced it but not too long afterwards, GM's EVSE gave up the ghost so I switched over to using a Level 2 EVSE plugged into the 240 Volt, 20 Amp circuit that normally powers my air compressor. That Level-2 charging runs at 16 Amps, the most the Volt can do. My first Level 2 EVSE was this European oddity that I bought used that had a Schuko wall plug and had all of its EVSE electronics in the J1772 connector! I built a 6-20P-to-Schuko adapter and ran that until water infiltration caused some corrosion that killed the electronics. I then bought a Zencar and have been using that ever since.

Eventually, newer Volts started coming with firmware that defaulted to 8 Amp Level 1 charging. Based on my experience, I can see why GM made the change but Volt owners who got this change hated it.
 

·
Registered User
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
For a long, long time with my Volt, I only charged with the Level 1 EVSE that came with the vehicle. It (by default) charged at 12 Amps but you could manually step it down to 8 Amps. It was plugged into a 5-15R receptacle on a 20 Amp GFCI-protected circuit. Eventually, the 5-15R receptacle started looking burnt so I replaced it but not too long afterwards, GM's EVSE gave up the ghost so I switched over to using a Level 2 EVSE plugged into the 240 Volt, 20 Amp circuit that normally powers my air compressor. That runs at 16 Amps, the most the Volt can do. My first Level 2 EVSE was this European oddity that I bought used that had a Schuko wall plug and had all of its EVSE electronics in the J1772 connector! I built a 6-20P-to-Schuko adapter and ran that until water infiltration caused some corrosion that killed the electronics. I then bought a Zencar and have been using that ever since.

Eventually, newer Volts started coming with firmware that defaulted to 8 Amp Level 1 charging. Based on my experience, I can see why GM made the change but Volt owners who got this change hated it.
Wow 8 amp charging would be very slow I can see why people would hate it. The 16 amp 110v level 1 I have is a Zencar very nice charger. The system seems to be pushing EV in the direction of 220v level 2 but the cost associated with that is high especially if you do not have the wiring in the garage. In my case to go to 220v for solar would cost thousands of dollars which I just can not justify. With the world be pushed into solar direction more flexible systems would help the transition. I would like to see a DC charging capacity at lower amp and lower voltage to work with solar panels. Also Solar in not very efficient when you invert to 110 v or to 220v you lose 20 to 30 percent of the starting power.
 

·
Registered User
2021 AWD Pro S
Joined
·
2,802 Posts
Also Solar in not very efficient when you invert to 110 v or to 220v you lose 20 to 30 percent of the starting power.
Not true. A good inverter like my Outback 3648 on my solar trailer which I use for off grid charging at 120v is 93% efficient.
or my home solar grid tied with a SMA sunny boy 7kw which is 97% efficient, and outputs 120 and 240v which I use for charging L2 at 7kw.
 

·
Registered User
'22 ID.4 Pro S AWD
Joined
·
321 Posts
For a long, long time with my Volt, I only charged with the Level 1 EVSE that came with the vehicle. It (by default) charged at 12 Amps but you could manually step it down to 8 Amps. It was plugged into a 5-15R receptacle on a 20 Amp GFCI-protected circuit. Eventually, the 5-15R receptacle started looking burnt so I replaced it but not too long afterwards, GM's EVSE gave up the ghost so I switched over to using a Level 2 EVSE plugged into the 240 Volt, 20 Amp circuit that normally powers my air compressor. That runs at 16 Amps, the most the Volt can do. My first Level 2 EVSE was this European oddity that I bought used that had a Schuko wall plug and had all of its EVSE electronics in the J1772 connector! I built a 6-20P-to-Schuko adapter and ran that until water infiltration caused some corrosion that killed the electronics. I then bought a Zencar and have been using that ever since.

Eventually, newer Volts started coming with firmware that defaulted to 8 Amp Level 1 charging. Based on my experience, I can see why GM made the change but Volt owners who got this change hated it.
The Bolt defaulted to 8A, and you had to select 12A each time you wanted it. I figured it was because most existing homes had 15A circuits that weren't dedicated. I lived with that for about a year. The charge time was... leisurely.
 

·
Registered User
Joined
·
476 Posts
With the world be pushed into solar direction more flexible systems would help the transition. I would like to see a DC charging capacity at lower amp and lower voltage to work with solar panels. Also Solar in not very efficient when you invert to 110 v or to 220v you lose 20 to 30 percent of the starting power.
I'd almost bet you that all of these Level-1 and Level-2 power inlets on the cars would be perfectly happy getting DC today, but unless someone has the circuit schematics handy, it's kind of a risky proposition to try it out. But did you know that most “universal” (100-240V) computer power supplies today will happily work on appropriate DC voltages as well?
 

·
Registered User
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
No. The J1772 Level 1 protocol maxes out at 16 amps.
Thank You! That is what was looking for I thought they would limit it but did not know what the limit was. I was hoping you could go to a 20 amp on a 110v system. Looks like I will continue with my 16 amp charging on my solar system. Can not justify the price tag to go to 220v.
 

·
Registered User
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Not true. A good inverter like my Outback 3648 on my solar trailer which I use for off grid charging at 120v is 93% efficient.
or my home solar grid tied with a SMA sunny boy 7kw which is 97% efficient, and outputs 120 and 240v which I use for charging L2 at 7kw.
You are quoting the spec from the manufacture, you do realize this is not reality. These specs are for perfect conditions and are not achieve in a real world application. The manufacture even stated it as "Typical Efficiency 93 %". Specifications on Solar panels is another good example my panels state 260 watts per panel I never achieve this. The environmental conditions are and always will be a driver for efficiency. You system is not perfect. Yes I agree they are getting better but why put out thousands of dollars for an inverter if you could directly charge to a EV with DC power.
 

·
Registered User
Joined
·
3,109 Posts
It can handle more than 16A at 120V if you have EVSE that is designed for the task and has ability to adjust max current. But it would be more efficient to use transformer for EU single phase 240V past 16A on 120V single phase. ... there can be used cheating way by boosting voltage to 260V. On board inverter will take it without problem ( and you will get more juice ar same current setting.
If someone is going to experiment with this make sure you have frequency as EU standard. .... Solar power and inverter for EU power standard. ....
 

·
Registered User
Enthusiastic 1st Edition Owner
Joined
·
5,149 Posts
It can handle more than 16A at 120V if you have EVSE that is designed for the task and has ability to adjust max current. ...
This is the reference I'm going off of. I don't have access to the SAE doc. You're saying the ID.4 will accept a higher rate?

Font Parallel Rectangle Screenshot Number
 

·
Registered User
2021 AWD Pro S
Joined
·
2,802 Posts
Yes I agree they are getting better but why put out thousands of dollars for an inverter if you could directly charge to a EV with DC power.
Because you can't do this. No item like that exists. It would be expensive, and still involve a DC-DC converter with similar or worse efficiency than an inverter. I know this because I already use a MPPT (maximum power point tracking) charge control for max. efficiency on my solar trailer, this is a DC-DC converter that maximizes the efficiency of the widely varying DC solar output to the slowly varying DC battery voltage. For example when my solar output is 70v at 30a it converts it to charge the battery at 48v at 44a. The same conversion would be needed (with different voltage) if you want efficiency on any DC solar charging system for a car. Edit: if you don't use a MPPT control like I describe which loses around 5% efficiency in DC-DC conversion, and you hook the panels to battery with a cheap charge control (or none at all) you get a 30-40% loss from your panels, and this might be what you are seeing.

The big advantage of an inverter is that I run my entire house with it, as well as charge my car.
 

·
Registered User
Enthusiastic 1st Edition Owner
Joined
·
5,149 Posts
I came across this 20 amp L1 unit from Clipper Creek (ACS-25).


Interestingly, it's hard wired. I can certainly imagine why!

It comes with this disclaimer: "Works with all plug-in vehicles including the Chevy Volt, Nissan LEAF, Fiat 500e, BMW i8, Kia Soul, Ford C Max, etc." Doesn't mention anything about not being compliant with the J1772 protocol. So it would appear the Wikipedia entry is incorrect (gasp) but I am curious what the SAE document says.

Searched for, couldn't find any 18, 22, or 24 amp L1 units.
 

·
Registered User
Joined
·
3,109 Posts
This is the reference I'm going off of. I don't have access to the SAE doc. You're saying the ID.4 will accept a higher rate?

View attachment 17936
I completely forgot about NA J1772 standard.... I'm still getting hang on EU standards, on board inverter can definitely use single phase up to 24A irrelevant to what standard is used NA or EU.
Only problem is to find EVSE J1772 standard for EU that is rated for 24A on 120V single phase. It will recognize and work on 50 or 60 hz frequency....it has V2L and other things already alive for charging port module. But BMS is still not enabled for V2L.
 

·
Registered User
2021 AWD Pro S
Joined
·
2,802 Posts
You are quoting the spec from the manufacture, you do realize this is not reality. These specs are for perfect conditions and are not achieve in a real world application.
Yes I know that I am getting that 97% efficiency on my home solar, and 93% on my solar trailer since I have tested the input and output multiple times with a very accurate digital volt and amp meter. My systems have digital monitors recording these volts and amps all the time which I have confirmed is accurate and shows the efficiency day to day. I am an engineer who has sold and installed many solar systems and have tested many other systems besides mine as well. This is why I designed my systems to be always operating in the good efficiency range of the inverter I chose, and I choose the most efficient inverters since its worth the small extra up front cost. Due to this: why I had to point out the inverter loss is 3% and not the 30% that you stated.

Even the cheap $200 for a 2000w inverter are now always > 85% efficient across most of its power range.
 

·
Registered User
Joined
·
3,109 Posts
Yes I know that I am getting that 97% efficiency on my home solar, and 93% on my solar trailer since I have tested the input and output multiple times with a very accurate digital volt and amp meter. My systems have digital monitors recording these volts and amps all the time which I have confirmed is accurate and shows the efficiency day to day. I am an engineer who has sold and installed many solar systems and have tested many other systems besides mine as well. This is why I designed my systems to be always operating in the good efficiency range of the inverter I chose, and I choose the most efficient inverters since its worth the small extra up front cost. Due to this: why I had to point out the inverter loss is 3% and not the 30% that you stated.

Even the cheap $200 for a 2000w inverter are now always > 85% efficient across most of its power range.
With some people is quite hard to have conversation because some people are hard set in what they believe. I do have 97% efficient inverters and i research more than ordinary customers....because to me is not expensive buying high quality. I wish they offer liquid cooled home inverters for home use. And after happy new year i will be doing something similar to your project but it will be quite more expensive by time I'm done.
Your work has me inspired to make something what you did.
You should consider your hobby as future business. There are many people who have no skills or time and are looking for mobile version to have all on wheels when needed.
Your project will definitely have good results if offered on the market....
 

·
Registered User
2021 AWD Pro S
Joined
·
2,802 Posts
Your project will definitely have good results if offered on the market....
Yes I agree that my solar trailer (or any form of solar!) would work great for many people, especially at the price of $2000 I spent for this to get all my EV charging done for the next 10 years as solar and free. It saves me $1500 per year on fuel of the Jeep it replaced, so its a really good return on investment. And the power co. cannot change my rates or my net metering agreement or all the other games people are now seeing with power co. I already made and invested plenty of money from multiple business I have done over the years, and one of them was off grid solar like this, so am not interesting in starting another new business. Now I am content to be an advisor and help many others understand solar and EVs better.
 

·
Registered User
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I came across this 20 amp L1 unit from Clipper Creek (ACS-25).


Interestingly, it's hard wired. I can certainly imagine why!

It comes with this disclaimer: "Works with all plug-in vehicles including the Chevy Volt, Nissan LEAF, Fiat 500e, BMW i8, Kia Soul, Ford C Max, etc." Doesn't mention anything about not being compliant with the J1772 protocol. So it would appear the Wikipedia entry is incorrect (gasp) but I am curious what the SAE document says.

Searched for, couldn't find any 18, 22, or 24 amp L1 units.
Thanks for this it will help me out, I was hoping for a higher amp draw to charge with my solar system at level 1 110v. Not much information on charging these EV's and the Dealer is useless.
 

·
Registered User
Enthusiastic 1st Edition Owner
Joined
·
5,149 Posts
Thanks for this it will help me out, I was hoping for a higher amp draw to charge with my solar system at level 1 110v. Not much information on charging these EV's and the Dealer is useless.
Maybe contact OpenEVSE? I imagine they would have a through understanding of what is possible.
 
1 - 20 of 30 Posts
Top