Wow. I think I actually heard Sandy say something nice about VW's work. Surely... that was accidental.
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Munro ID.4 Battery teardown
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The MEB platform is quite competitive and well done. Sandy essentially confirms what UBS teardown showed a while ago.
It is these types of things that make me feel really good about my choice of EV.
It is these types of things that make me feel really good about my choice of EV.
I didn't hear it mentioned in the video but does anybody know who made the cells for the german made ID.4s? I read conflicting info it was either LG or SK... maybe both? maybe neither?
LG Chem (although they may be moving away from them).I didn't hear it mentioned in the video but does anybody know who made the cells for the german made ID.4s? I read conflicting info it was either LG or SK... maybe both? maybe neither?
So $10 per kilo blended rate savings - I get that from a pure John Cooper "add lightness" point of view.
I'd be really interested what the actual delta would be though if you then break out the "just replace this with a polymer/Carbon Fiber design" idea.
Composites are worlds ahead of where they were a long time ago and I am super armchair here - but my thoughts immediately go to prep/cook/cure/post-processing time requirements for an equivalent composite solution. I know a big driving force behind BMWs i3 was to workshop and scale up carbon fiber at an industrial pace, but I have to think that there may still be production rate pressure that might rule out this solution (for VW) at this time.
I'd be really interested what the actual delta would be though if you then break out the "just replace this with a polymer/Carbon Fiber design" idea.
Composites are worlds ahead of where they were a long time ago and I am super armchair here - but my thoughts immediately go to prep/cook/cure/post-processing time requirements for an equivalent composite solution. I know a big driving force behind BMWs i3 was to workshop and scale up carbon fiber at an industrial pace, but I have to think that there may still be production rate pressure that might rule out this solution (for VW) at this time.
He kept talking about a savings per Kg. 50kg is equal to about 100 lbs and at a saving of $5 per lb. Where and how does the consumer cash in???from your favorite critic, Munro.
edit: Nice to see the construction. I re-did his table with kg per kWh calculations. The Teslas are less than 2% lighter per kWh.
View attachment 3713
That was not clear, but also not the point. His partner organization paying for the analysis is a composite manufacturer, and the analysis is purely from a "how can we build this cheaper?" point of view.He kept talking about a savings per Kg. 50kg is equal to about 100 lbs and at a saving of $5 per lb. Where and how does the consumer cash in???
I wonder whether he will give us detail about the extruded bracing in a later video. This is where VW uses super high strength steel inside aluminum extrusions for a very carefully designed structure that distributes impact force away from the battery, and along the entire length of the cage. Check the NHTSA docs for details. I am not so sure this can easily be replicated with plastic composites.
Weight savings factor into a lot of areas. Less material (if that's part of your weight savings) can equal cheaper build costs. Lighter vehicles are less expensive to transport. Lighter vehicles get better range.He kept talking about a savings per Kg. 50kg is equal to about 100 lbs and at a saving of $5 per lb. Where and how does the consumer cash in???
He kept talking about a savings per Kg. 50kg is equal to about 100 lbs and at a saving of $5 per lb. Where and how does the consumer cash in???
Yeah, not sure what savings he was referring to - cost of manufacture?, cost of operation?That was not clear,
But one thing the consumer gets with a lighter car is more range.
Yeah,Weight savings factor into a lot of areas. Less material (if that's part of your weight savings) can equal cheaper build costs. Lighter vehicles are less expensive to transport. Lighter vehicles get better range.
His work is very industry insider focused and I completely missed the fact that the customer was a composites maker.
Cost savings for manufacturer might not necessarily be passed on to consumer, but what if in revision 2x/3 of the ID.4 they sell at same MSRP but due to weight savings we get a Range improvement or same range but upgraded interior or any other overall improvement. You wouldn't necessarily see it as them building more margin into the production at your expense, but it gives the whole platform much greater flexibility.
His focus is on reducing cost to manufacture.Yeah, not sure what savings he was referring to - cost of manufacture?
This is one of the numerous reasons I'm always perplexed by consumers hanging on his every word like gospel. His focus is not on the consumer and many of the recommendations he makes would make a vehicle less appealing from a consumer's point of view.
Sabic engineering plastics was purchased from GE an number of years ago. I am not aware of any products from that business that would be considered high strength composites. PC, PBT, Ultem, etc are not going to get you there. Adding glass fibers or graphite fibers increases the strength of just about any resin but I am not aware of any Sabic products that will bring cost or weight savings. A reinforced polyamide might bring weight savings but , otherwise, high strength composites are costly to produce and difficult to transition to high production applications. Composites are used in commercial aircraft but these are produced in relatively low numbers compare to autos.
Quite right. He's all about "value engineering" which is good/bad depending on your perspective.
His focus is on reducing cost to manufacture.
This is one of the numerous reasons I'm always perplexed by consumers hanging on his every word like gospel. His focus is not on the consumer and many of the recommendations he makes would make a vehicle less appealing from a consumer's point of view.
Yep. And plastics... I think VW would have EU problems with plastics. Aluminum is VERY recyclable. Plastic? We generally recognize is not at all.... and the whole recycling thing was an intentional plastic industry sponsored canard. FWIW, Sandy has his opinions. The oddest is "The VW is a car good for old people... but not my thing."I'm always perplexed by consumers hanging on his every word like gospel.
Much as he likes to harp on defects, Sandy has his own prejudices and blind spots. Much as he expects managements to be humble and respect their engineers creativity (and I do, too), Sandy's own high opinion of himself (like any of us).... might be an equal and opposite force, and limit the applicability of his "insights". Yes, there's a point in what he says, but it may not be terribly relevant or important in many cases.
I have trouble taking him too serious when half of the videos I've watched he can't figure out really basic interfaces. He reserved a Rivian and totally missed half the website, and I don't understand how he struggled with the ID.4 interface, yet thinks the Model 3 interface is easy enough to a random person to hop in and use without any training as part of a rental. I appreciate the tear downs, but I totally agree with you about the applicability of his insights.Yep. And plastics... I think VW would have EU problems with plastics. Aluminum is VERY recyclable. Plastic? We generally recognize is not at all.... and the whole recycling thing was an intentional plastic industry sponsored canard. FWIW, Sandy has his opinions. The oddest is "The VW is a car good for old people... but not my thing."
Much as he likes to harp on defects, Sandy has his own prejudices and blind spots. Much as he expects managements to be humble and respect their engineers creativity (and I do, too), Sandy's own high opinion of himself (like any of us).... might be an equal and opposite force, and limit the applicability of his "insights". Yes, there's a point in what he says, but it may not be terribly relevant or important in many cases.
Not only recyclable, but also repairable. Someone might manufacture something that is inexpensive to purchase, but needs to be thrown away if it fails. I am thinking in particular of batteries that are potted in epoxy that Tesla uses, but there are many other cases out there.Yep. And plastics... I think VW would have EU problems with plastics. Aluminum is VERY recyclable. Plastic? We generally recognize is not at all.... and the whole recycling thing was an intentional plastic industry sponsored canard.
I enjoy the tear downs because they give much deeper insights than what the manufacturers want us to see. Personal opinion and quirks are just little add-ons.
The “reviews” are a different matter, of course, as we all agree.
The “reviews” are a different matter, of course, as we all agree.
Here's why you guys are barking up the wrong tree:
1. Engineers better have strong opinions, especially if they're running their own company. So Sandy's reviews suck and he doesn't like the ID.4, boo hoo, I get it but driving reviews are not his area of expertise.
2. "Value engineering" in the right context absolutely has consumer benefit. Not ALL to our benefit, but certainly in creating lighter, smaller, less expensive, more reliable products. There's more tech crammed into a more compact package and new vehicles are less expensive (basic models, adjusted for inflation), safer, and more reliable / longer lasting than ever. On the down side, in many cases they can be more difficult to repair.
3. CFRP is recyclable. There's short video of a BMW i3 getting the treatment -- I don't know what it gets made into from there, but clearly isn't being dumped in landfill. EU requirements lay out vehicle recyclability requirements and as more and more plastics are being used, this is an area of focus. I don't know where the US is but the point is these products don't need to be dumped or incinerated.
4. "Scrap" CFRP from the construction of various i-series and 7-seires vehicles is repurposed to make flat parts such as roof panels. BMW says about 10% of their CFRP used in a new car is 2nd use trimmings material. Metals, especially aluminum, have their own environmental costs to consider.
1. Engineers better have strong opinions, especially if they're running their own company. So Sandy's reviews suck and he doesn't like the ID.4, boo hoo, I get it but driving reviews are not his area of expertise.
2. "Value engineering" in the right context absolutely has consumer benefit. Not ALL to our benefit, but certainly in creating lighter, smaller, less expensive, more reliable products. There's more tech crammed into a more compact package and new vehicles are less expensive (basic models, adjusted for inflation), safer, and more reliable / longer lasting than ever. On the down side, in many cases they can be more difficult to repair.
3. CFRP is recyclable. There's short video of a BMW i3 getting the treatment -- I don't know what it gets made into from there, but clearly isn't being dumped in landfill. EU requirements lay out vehicle recyclability requirements and as more and more plastics are being used, this is an area of focus. I don't know where the US is but the point is these products don't need to be dumped or incinerated.
4. "Scrap" CFRP from the construction of various i-series and 7-seires vehicles is repurposed to make flat parts such as roof panels. BMW says about 10% of their CFRP used in a new car is 2nd use trimmings material. Metals, especially aluminum, have their own environmental costs to consider.
CFRP is a limited recyclable material. Ask anyone close to the boating industry that has used it for decades. The advantage of CFRP lies 1) in lower labor content manufacture through forming rather than through metals and cutting, and 2) strength to weight. Metals do recycle, but plastics - even these... well, they become problems for another day. Out of sight, out of mind. And they are less and less cheap... less about cost and more about strength-to-weight. I had two custom masts made out carbon composites twenty years ago to replace pre-existing masts we were able to recycle ONLY as school flag poles. There's an old white paper on this 20 years ago with an intro by George Schultz (Mr Bectel before he worked with Reagan) of all people.
But the myth of plastics and recycling is just that - and now debunked by retired plastics industry folks. Period. That's a settled issue. Yes, we need them and they are "better" in some ways than the materials they replaced - especially for handling of medicines, but where possible, folks are moving back to aluminum because it actually IS recyclable... and the ideal battery material. How much nano-sized plastic materials do we really need in our bloodstreams and in the creatures at the bottom of the oceans? Something on the order of the majority of "recycling" amounts to no more than moving my trash from nearby to a 3rd world nation that can't afford to say "no". The true costs of plastic are exogenous and won't be known until we get serious about cleaning the oceans.
But the myth of plastics and recycling is just that - and now debunked by retired plastics industry folks. Period. That's a settled issue. Yes, we need them and they are "better" in some ways than the materials they replaced - especially for handling of medicines, but where possible, folks are moving back to aluminum because it actually IS recyclable... and the ideal battery material. How much nano-sized plastic materials do we really need in our bloodstreams and in the creatures at the bottom of the oceans? Something on the order of the majority of "recycling" amounts to no more than moving my trash from nearby to a 3rd world nation that can't afford to say "no". The true costs of plastic are exogenous and won't be known until we get serious about cleaning the oceans.
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