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Discussion starter · #26 · (Edited)
Hi, fellow readers! Just wanted to indicate, that while I was at the dealer on August 16th, I asked the 'buyer/person in charge of receiving the vehicle' several questions, among them, the obvious, "Why do they want this vehicle so much?" He could not answer that, but he did volunteer that it was "Going to Germany" and that he had orders to make sure it got there.
I also want to thank VW TECHNICIAN for taking note of this thread. I have an update on the new Grey ID4. As you have read, a day or two after I took this one off the truck (It was bought and trucked in from Oakland, Ca) I changed out the 12V battery. Prior to doing that it had some glitches. The dashboard stated "Electronic Child Lock Error". Also, the driver seat had a mind of it's own..or a ghost driver who LOVED reclining the seat. The windows would go down when you pressed up. I think that was all of them. But after changing the battery, and recalibrating the windows and seats, we have not had a single glitch. For what THIS is worth, I have interfaced / placed a recording device directly into the main CANBUS just for my own edification. No direct connection, but a 'clamp on ammeter' type of connection. I 'may' (probably not) be able to discern some data after a couple of months of collecting data.
So, there you have the latest.
I had also stated that Varta's own webpage indicated that an AGM should be the battery of choice in this vehicle. I attached a annotated picture, showing the battery put in these things prior to 2023, the 2023 battery, and what should have been there since day 1 !
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Discussion starter · #27 · (Edited)
Ooppss...I forgot to include the most important glitch the new ID4 had before I changed out the battery. The vehicle occasionally would not shut off, when you got out of the seat, you would not get the 'da-da-daboom da' noise. I had even ordered the seat sensor,
PART # 4M09593398062 thinking it might be bad, but after changing the battery, the problem never re-appeared, so I cancelled it. The seat massager also for whatever reason did not traverse it's full distance in-out and up-down. Simple recalibration using the lumbar switches, just like the windows and regular seat functions, make it go the full distance, and hold it for a while once at it's limit. Problem solved. Also, I removed a discovered tracking device that Oakland had installed without my permission. (Extra intermittent 110ma drain) So, all in all, 1400 miles and just over a month has passed now with no further glitches.
VW TECHNICIAN, do you have any way of discovering what if anything Germany has determined/decided with that car?
I, along with many others I'm sure, would like to know!
Thanks, people!
 
Just a note of which you're likely aware @Las Vegas ID4 John but not all Absorbent Glass Mat (AGM) batteries are "deep cycle", however many are and presumably is yours if it's solved your issue. Of course if the VW BMS was doing a better job the 12V battery would rarely if ever get to a low level of charge and thereby not need "deep cycle" restoration.

AGM are intrinsically better quality as originally a clever lead-acid packaging scheme for rigorous maritime and race car use where their high-G and atypical mounting capabilities were/are especially appreciated. They're somewhat analogous to race car fuel cells in that the latter's baffling/absorbent mat is also high-G resistant.
 
Discussion starter · #29 · (Edited)
Very good point @Huey52 .
The only thing I know 'for certain' about my choice of battery is this. The old EFS battery that was pulled out, once put on a bench and tested forensically, showed ZERO FAILURE. WHICH MEANS, possibly, that maybe it was just not coded to the car properly to begin with. WHICH MEANS, had I simply taken the car to those German Geniuses and had that section of the car re-coded, the battery would not sit overnight and then drop to 11.7 or less.
Here are other facts. VARTA ITSELF, who made the batteries the ID4's use, states CLEARLY that an AGM should be put in ELECTRIC CARS. BMW has been doing so for quite a while. Tesla went even further, swapping out AGM for a LiOn, but found out the hard way in Norway that was a mistake. (Hard to find a small LIOn with heating built in, lol)
MORE FACTS: Hyundai/KIA had some vehicle with a '12V reset' button right on the dashboard. (It force started the 12V converter)
I submit this: (At this moment, unsubstantiated). The VW engineers wanted an AGM. The bean counters said no.
I also submit this: I believe that 99.9% of the ID4 and ID3 CANBUS related problems are solved putting in an AGM.
I'm sure that most of you readers have seen the scope waveforms of the 12V system under stress. Picture attached. Imagagine what happens to the computer when the 12V drops to a blip over 10 Volts!
From what I have read, EVS have had 12V battery problems since darn near forever. I really wish I had seen what 12V battery was in my E-Golf before I passed it on for an ID4.
Maybe the ID4 would have been fine with the Pb battery and proper coding? I don't know. is the battery I put in deep-cycle? I don't know. Clarios/Johnson Controls / Public Affairs guy at Advance Auto parts all say this: "Includes xEV by Clarios technology, offering 30% more cycling than standard AGM batteries" Does that infer Deep Cycling? Who knows. But I do know that what I have now works! Even if it cost $700.00 to find out it works! ($300.00 for the battery, $400.00 for the coding/installation)
Here is a link to the actual batteries i purchased: Advance Auto Parts - Down for Maintenance
 

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I agree about many of the strange problems and errors like a blank infotainment are caused by weak 12v batteries, which all of us with 2021 cars got. I have seen it watching my 12v voltage with car scanner, and my problems are when it gets low voltage, and mine also gets drained below 11.5v every night. The recall (that I am still waiting for after 5 months due to my dealer says they cannot get enough of the new 12v batteries) upgrades us to better EFB style batteries, but the BMS is still mistreating them by too many deep cycles, so I expect similar problems to happen but only after a year or 2 on the new EFB batteries.

I agree about the AGM being far better, here is an old thread about this where I summarized the benefits:
here are the advantages of AGM:
They have a higher power output for same size (higher CCA - cold cranking amps which is always useful even on EV when cold.)
They have a shorter charging time (5x faster.)
They have a longer lifespan (2-3x.)
They are more durable (for rough abuse like motocross and 4wd.)
They are unlikely to build up sulfation which lowers their capacity.
They never need checking and adding distilled water.
Better cold temperature performance.

This is why most car makes have switched to AGM in the past 5 years or so. I have a 9 years old AGM on my truck that still works better than any non-AGM I have had.

Drawbacks:They have a lower tolerance to overcharging and high voltages. (edit: so don't use your usual battery charger on them! they need a special setting)
Thanks for being a pioneer of AGM on ID.4, since once I need to replace mine its the only battery type I will buy if I have the choice. My question is whether now that you have coded it for AGM if the BMS is actually going to use the proper charging voltages to get long life out of the AGM. Its been really abusing my 12v by allowing bad voltages. I have seen repeated overcharging to >14.5v and not dropping to a float voltage of 13.5v, and repeated discharging to <11.5v with my currently very weak 12v battery. Which I have documented with car scanner graphs and full description in other threads:
For AGM never do equalizing voltage since it can permanently damage them. Here is some data I posted in my Experiment watching my 12v battery voltage, and its getting too low every night I have lots of other data recorded and can post more later. SOC is always near 100%, and goes there quickly since its become a very weak battery in only 9 months. Mine often goes to 15.5v like on this graph, and stays there all day when its cold and battery is around 10F and this is much too high for a float voltage. My expert sources say at 10F the float voltage should be 14.6v max. after applying temp. compensation to the 77F float of 13.5v.
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Speaking of alternate 12V batteries for the ID4, any thoughts on going with an LFP battery?
 
Discussion starter · #32 ·
EarthX ETX900 is yet another Lithium Substitute. And Antigravity AG-51R-RS. Let me tell you something about these off-brand battery manufacturers. As you are probably aware, I did aircraft engineering. My last encounter with an off-brand Li was 2015 and it was a hot mess! The attached picture was not the exact one I encountered in an aircraft, but it is an excellent representation. Needless to say, that particular aircraft owner made sure to use OEM batteries after that. Yes, especially Ohmmu (mu is negative resistance, by the way, or Mega Unit) in my opinion is certainly a DEDICATED company sincerely trying to fill a void. I think they are doing a good job. I also believe that they are 'just not there' yet.
Besides, I guarantee that if you put in a Lithium battery in the 12v, pray that it does not get too cold! No matter what the manufacturer says! Maybe soon they will have built in heaters. Just where are you going to power them from?
This picture that I attached is indeed a relatively new Ohmmu. Just not my idea of a great solder job.
So, that's my stand on 'off the beaten path' battery manufacturers and Lithiums in general for the 12V.
 

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Speaking of alternate 12V batteries for the ID4, any thoughts on going with an LFP battery?
That looks like a good battery for anyone where it never gets below 32F. Since if you charge any lithium chemistry once below 32F it can completely ruin it. And it likely has some built in protection from this, which means it won't charge the 12v at all when this cold, and then you are likely to get stranded with a dead 12v.
 
It is at Chattanooga?
When I was a kid, we donated a dog to the government’s drug sniffer program… they sent me postcards and photos of him sniffing suticases at Honolulu international airport. Maybe you can get a postcard, too… ;)
 
Discussion starter · #36 ·
I am certain that a LiON battery could have it's advantages even for an ID4. But no matter WHAT battery you put in, without proper CODING, you are asking for PROBLEMS GUARANTEED!
AND! With my knowledge of LiON batteries, I would never install it in a car in Las Vegas, because, it DOES get colder than 32 degrees somedays....
 
Discussion starter · #37 ·
Speaking of deer in the head lights I third the motion. One reads horror stories of owners of broken or bricked cars who can't get parts,don't get lemon lawed, get buy backs rejected, no wheels for months......and then there is you. Fixes 12volt battery with a trip to advance auto and gets an offer for 75k to buy the car back. All I can say is to offer a salute to a fellow engineer and a request to touch the hem of your garment as a blessing against all misfortune. I can only make wild guesses about what is afoot.
Your comment and salute is most appreciated.
Thank you.
 
My UNSOLICITED buy back offer did not have a non dissemination (gag) order, so here is my story.

I'm John. I'm an old, retarded..er, uh, retired aerospace engineer. I have 2 engineering degrees and an MBA, all from Southern California universities. Of course, over the years, I have bought and sold many vehicles. Worked on many cars, aircraft, busses, heavy equipment, and the like. I actually bought the FIRST Lexus sold in southern California, before they even had model numbers.

But here's the story you want to hear. Around July of 2021 wife and I figured it was time to look at electric cars. Did my research. On September 13, 2021, I bought a BRAND NEW 2016 E-Golf SEL. (Yes, Brand New). 156 Miles. Great Deal. Had it trucked here from Massachusetts. Loved the car. Only replaced the 12 V battery and tires. (They were over 5 years old, you know) In a year and 3 months, 12/28/2022 with 17119 miles traded it in for a NEW ID4 AWD Pro S and got more money in trade than we paid for it! Loved the ID4 for 3 days! Got a charging fault, fading green then red. Dash said Emergency Charging only. Went to my local dealer. Found everyone had a 'deer in the headlights' look. Went back home. Said to self, ' I guess I'm on my own'. Anyway fixed that problem with Nyogel 760G to lube the charge port. January 3rd, 2023, had to start putting the key fobs in a Faraday Box because they were talking too much to the car and I knew the fob batteries would be kaput real soon. January 10th, noticed weird dash errors, the 12 V battery was dying, sitting at 11.6 during an overnight. Moved F52 to the always on position so I could monitor the 12 V voltage 24/7. Bought a NOCO to jump start the thing when it would be dead. Fast forward 3 months. Now it's dead more than it's alive. Went to dealer for battery, 'deer in the headlights' look, plus they had no battery. Neither did the Audi dealer. Ok, on my own again. A day later, both the binnacle and infotain screen blanked out. I alerted the NHTSA. After all, now I had no speedometer. Then I took apart the battery hold down, and to my shock, this was not even an AGM battery to begin with! Varta's web pages said it was supposed to be! So, I found an AGM battery through of all places, Advance Auto Parts. Right size, AGM, made by Varta (Johnson Controls or whoever owns it this week). Took the car and the battery to the independent VW and other German Geniuses shop here in town. They have the ODIS or whatever they needed to code the new battery. They installed it, coded it, and you know, the voltage NEVER again dropped below 12.4 even after 3 days sitting. Now fast forward AGAIN, to July 17th, 6 months and a week later. My phone rings. It's VWOA wanting to BUY MY CAR! UNSOLICITED ! (For Extensive Testing, she tells me) I told her, Ok, give me a couple of days to hash together an offer. I came up with $75000.00, figuring that would kill it. It was realistic figuring the time I put into it, and $750.00 for a battery installed and coded. THEY ACCEPTED! Well, long story almost finished, they have my ID4, I bought a NEW ID4, (of course replaced the battery immediately). No BUZZ was available July 17th !

So here was an ID4 that had never seen the inside of a VW Dealer Repair Center, we were very happy with the car despite the glitches, yet VWOA wanted it back! Just thought you'd love this story. I know they sent the ID4 off to Germany, do we have any way to find out what if anything they have done or its status?

I have been reading these forums since May of 2021, but this is my first contribution. (If you can call it that)

Thanks for reading.

John
Congrats on getting some $$$ for your hard work!
 
Discussion starter · #40 ·
That looks like a good battery for anyone where it never gets below 32F. Since if you charge any lithium chemistry once below 32F it can completely ruin it. And it likely has some built in protection from this, which means it won't charge the 12v at all when this cold, and then you are likely to get stranded with a dead 12v.
Ok, Readers! I re-read the data on the 12V Charging system of the ID4. (Pertinent Page Attached Here) I noticed that it is possible for the charging voltage to be as high as 15.5 Volts. In my opinion, this is TOO HIGH for a LiOn battery, which should not be charged at higher than 14.25. So, I would NOT, under any circumstance, place a 12 V LiOn battery in an ID4. The guys at the German vehicle shop who coded the AGM to the vehicle also confirmed what I just stated, from what they had seen on these vehicles, they would NEVER put a 12V LiOn battery in this vehicle.
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