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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Good Day Everyone,

We just purchased a 2021 ID.4 PRO last week. I drove a Tesla, my son's, for about 7 months while in San Diego in 2017; he was out to sea on a 7 month deployment. I loved the one pedal driving. I'm really a MB Sprinter Camper/ RV man for road trips and I do mean road trips; 236K in the last 5 years.

Now to the meat of my 1st weeks experience with the ID.4.

EPA estimates are for the the entire 100% State of Charge (SOC) and should get us 250 miles. The ID.4 like all other EV's gets better Miles per gallon gasoline equivalent (mpg/e) in the city than on the highway. But, I noticed that the ID.4 compared to Tesla and the Chevy Bolt don't really do much regenerating on highway going down hills as compared to the others. In fact, I noticed at 65/70 mph with no regeneration its discharge consumption is relatively flat-0 or consuming some battery power going downhill. That seems like quite poor rolling resistance for a 4000 lb vehicle.

This morning, was my first trip on the highway; actually the Pennsylvania Turnpike. I was sadly disappointed with the mpg/e. I noted beforehand that the mpg/e is better in city driving and already expected less efficiency at highway speeds. But, my calculations mean the ID.4 only really gets about 180-200 miles of driving distance while consuming 90% Stare of Charge SOC. Sure one can get slightly better distance if you drive with the climate control off. Why do that? I didn't have the AC on but I did have the fan on Auto medium. Outside ambient temp was 50° and I asked for 70° inside. I would never talk about electron flow in and out of batteries or Lithium battery chemistry here because that's too much scientific information and useless for plain simple language to express what we need to know to drive an EV.

Yes range anxiety is a real thing but as time goes by and we learn our vehicles personality traits and the geographic region in which we drive and range anxiety lessens.

I consumed 40% SOC to go 70 miles. Whoa, that's a terrible. So I stopped at Electrify America in Allentown PA on my return trip at 10% SOC and recharged to 90%. My average for the return trip was better and only used 30% SOC for roughly the same 70 mile. It took 40% SOC to get there. The actual usage was 2.6 mi/kWh over 140 miles. Again terrible; I was down to 62% SOC when I arrived home. There are only 311 miles on the car with 70% city, and 30% highway driving and the actual lifetime statistic is 2.9 mi/kWh. I called my brother with a Chevy Bolt and his lifetime average is 4.4mi/kWh although that is at 4 years and 40k total miles.

I completed charging it at home back to the normal 80% SOC and the Guess O Meter reflects 208mi range. That's more plausible.

Again, I believe the rolling resistance is terrible. The ID.4 has 235/50R20 tires that have a good 8.5" of width on the pavement. That's a lot of square inches of contact on the asphalt. Likely needs that much at it's approx. 4000 lbs base weight. Twice has heavy as an ICE counterpart.

My initial expectations were all wrong. There's now way this vehicle is going to get 250 miles per charge even if it's topped of to 100% for long trips. I would also like to set it to charge to 95% like I did for the Telsa S, but it only allows percentages in 10% increments.

I also read others post discussing the science behind reduced charge rates when over 50 and 80%. That's pretty much old data. The rates taday are reduced but not that much as there were in the early EV years.

The ID.4 has a software-set max charge rate of 94-95kw. From the 10-50% SOC it took 95kW charge rate. At 81%, I observed it lowered to 64kW and at 88% it was still taking 43kW. Not to bad in my experience and better than my early years driving the Tesla.

Here's another big complaint. The total Electrify America fast charge was 65kWh at $16.53. No $ charge of course with 36mo free charging. That was $16.53 for 140 miles. That's really $0.11 per mi which is terrible. 140 miles at 35mpg in an ICE, VW Passat would be $12 @ $3.00 per gallon. I left home at 53% SOC and returned with 62%. I consumed 40% to get there and 28% to return cuz I slowed down. Add 12% to $12 of an ICE fuel cost and it's still less than the $16 EV $ charges at $13.44. And why the differential cost? That's because of the fast charging "tier rates". Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi own Electrify America. The charging tier rates are $0.16 for up to 90kW/min and doubled at $0.32kW/min from 90-150, 90-350kW/min. If one could charge at double the rate, say 188/kW the time would be half and it would equal the same total dollar amount.

Here's my biggest complaint with Volkswagen. They should have and could have set the maximum charge limit to 88kW to limit the EV charge cost to the tier 1 levels and the cost for this trip would have been $8.265. The question is, since Electrify America is a subsidiary of Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi was it a deliberate economic tactic to have this vehicle charge at a tier 2 charging rate to make money to offset the free charging offer? It doesn't make sense for the consumer to be at the lowest end of the charger's tier 2 rate. It would make more sense to accept the higher rate and cut the minutes in half, for the consumer; that way the total cost would be the same. I want to and will ask Volkswagen to update my software, any yours, to the maximum 88 kW rate and make it fair. After all, the ID.4 only has an 82 kWh battery pack (gross capacity) and 72 kWh (usable) Lithium-Ion battery so why are they allowed charging above the 100% capacity rate anyway? Sure it's okay in my book to begin charging at 100% of the battery rating but 94-95kw it is above 100%. I think it is very shrewd to force me into the tier 2 rate minimum, by 4-5/kW for Corporate Prosperity. Secondly there no way with the terrain here in Pennsylvania to achieve the touted 250-260 mile range estimates.

I'm reporting that the best we will see driving on Pennsylvania highways is 180-200 mile range using 90% SOC and eventually paying way to much: double for charging away from home!

The same 64KWh that Electrify America charges $16.53 only cost me $7.80 at home.
 

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2021 VW ID.4 1st Edition, Dusk Blue <3
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The max charging speed is 125kW, not 95kW. There are various factors that play into what charging rate you get, like you might've needed to actually be at <10% SoC, you might've needed a warmer battery, etc. I do agree with you that maybe it would be nice to have an option to set a max charging speed, so that if I have the time to wait longer, I could limit it and pay a lower rate. However, it's your state's fault that you are charged by the amount of time spent charging, not VW's. In other states, there's just a flat fee of $0.43 per kWh (which is lower if you pay the $4 monthly membership), but some states have laws that you can't charge by the kWh if you aren't an actual electric utility company.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
where are you getting the maximum charge rate information from. that's not "fact checked info"
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
The max charging speed is 125kW, not 95kW. There are various factors that play into what charging rate you get, like you might've needed to actually be at <10% SoC, you might've needed a warmer battery, etc. I do agree with you that maybe it would be nice to have an option to set a max charging speed, so that if I have the time to wait longer, I could limit it and pay a lower rate. However, it's your state's fault that you are charged by the amount of time spent charging, not VW's. In other states, there's just a flat fee of $0.43 per kWh (which is lower if you pay the $4 monthly membership), but some states have laws that you can't charge by the kWh if you aren't an actual electric utility company.
still that's over 100% of the 82kW battery Pack and not good for the battery pack.

where are you getting the maximum charge rate 125kW information from. is it "fact checked info" and if it is what's the source?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
VW and Electrify America say the max is 95kW. I spoke with EA this morning. the ID.4 only has an 82 kWh battery pack (gross capacity) and 72 kWh (usable) Lithium-Ion battery so why are they charging above the 100% capacity rate anyway? The max charge rate of 100% should technically be set as maximum allowable at 82kW.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
and it took 65kWh x $0.43 as you quoted is now $27.00. So why is it the states fault. the flat rate is a higher cost at more than double.
 

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When the battery is below % it usually starts charging at 125kW. I have run into a slow EA charger that seemed to be limited to 55 kW . I know which one it is and avoid it when possible. One thing to consider is going above the speed limit sucks electricity just like it would suck gas. But a gas tank has a bigger range than a battery does. I strongly suspect within a year that $3.00 a gallon gas will be a distant memory. Both from tax increase reasons and from reduced production.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
There is no law of physics that says you cannot charge a battery at a rate greater than 1C (rate in kW = energy capacity in 1 hour).
Yes that why I stated that they are above the 100% rate of capacity. I think it's just to force Tier 2 rates and not do too much battery damage. It's always about money and Corporate Greed. If you don't say something up front they get away with it. Seems to me like it should eventually wind up in a Class Action Lawsuit if there's enough vocalization and persistent pressure to get something done.
 

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2021 VW ID.4 1st Edition, Dusk Blue <3
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Yes that why I stated that they are above the 100% rate of capacity. I think it's just to force Tier 2 rates and not do too much battery damage. It's always about money and Corporate Greed. If you don't say something up front they get away with it. Seems to me like it should eventually wind up in a Class Action Lawsuit if there's enough vocalization and persistent pressure to get something done.
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how battery packs and charging work. The ID.4 has an 82kWh gross battery pack, with 77kWh usable. Notice the 'h' there, kWh stands for "kilowatt-hour", and it is a unit of "volume" of electricity, so to speak; it refers to the idea that, if you have 77kWh in the battery pack, and you discharge the battery pack at a steady and continuous 77 kilowatts, the output of power would last for 1 hour. "Kilowatts", without the "hour", is just the rate of electricity flowing in some direction. So when you charge the car, the rate (Kilowatts) at which you charge is unrelated to the size/capacity of the battery pack. Charging at 100 or 125kW, or even higher, with a 77kWh (or technically 82kWh) battery is perfectly ok.

EDIT: as for my source of information, try the official VW media release about the car: NEWSROOM: Understanding the what, where and why of electric vehicle charging.
 

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I do not know where you get your numbers from, but my ID4 and every decent test we have seen documents a charge rate of slightly above 125 kW. E.g.
As to EA pricing, as far as I know their deal with the EPA requires complete separation from the car business. Pricing collusion would violate that in a big way.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how battery packs and charging work. The ID.4 has an 82kWh gross battery pack, with 77kWh usable. Notice the 'h' there, kWh stands for "kilowatt-hour", and it is a unit of "volume" of electricity, so to speak; it refers to the idea that, if you have 77kWh in the battery pack, and you discharge the battery pack at a steady and continuous 77 kilowatts, the output of power would last for 1 hour. "Kilowatts", without the "hour", is just the rate of electricity flowing in some direction. So when you charge the car, the rate (Kilowatts) at which you charge is unrelated to the size/capacity of the battery pack. Charging at 100 or 125kW, or even higher, with a 77kWh (or technically 82kWh) battery is perfectly ok.

EDIT: as for my source of information, try the official VW media release about the car: NEWSROOM: Understanding the what, where and why of electric vehicle charging.
So perhaps it was was the internet and must be true. Sounds like "Perception Management" techniques. So have you personally witness the 125kW charging? and did you read the citation #4 attached? which states:
"4) ID.4 equipped with fast charging capability maximum rate of 125kW. Based on charging at a 125kW or "higher charger". Charging times will vary and depend on a variety of factors, including ambient temperature, charger type, battery condition and initial state of charge, vehicle condition and others. Frequent and consecutive fast charging can permanently decrease battery capacity."

I add, Note the reduction in decreased capacity note. Call Volkswagen and verify the accuracy and get it in wrighting. Looks like a lot of forum members are good at "cutting and pasting" and have very little personal knowledge!
 

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2021 VW ID.4 1st Edition, Dusk Blue <3
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So perhaps it was was the internet and must be true. Sounds like "Perception Management" techniques. So have you personally witness the 125kW charging? and did you read the citation #4 attached? which states:
"4) ID.4 equipped with fast charging capability maximum rate of 125kW. Based on charging at a 125kW or "higher charger". Charging times will vary and depend on a variety of factors, including ambient temperature, charger type, battery condition and initial state of charge, vehicle condition and others. Frequent and consecutive fast charging can permanently decrease battery capacity."

I add, Note the reduction in decreased capacity note. Call Volkswagen and verify the accuracy and get it in wrighting. Looks like a lot of forum members are good at "cutting and pasting" and have very little personal knowledge!
As a matter of fact yes, just today I visited an EA charger and got 128kW peak speed, which lasted for maybe 5-10 minutes before it started tapering down gradually as the SoC climbed. I've attached a screenshot of this charging session from my charging history as proof. Many other members here have also received 125+kW charging speeds and posted about it, and you can find numerous videos on YouTube from various different YouTubers showing video proof of the ID.4 getting 125kW speeds.

It is a verifiable fact that the ID.4 can charge at 125kW.

As far as you putting quotes around "higher charger" for some reason: yes, duh, the charging station you are at must be able to deliver 125kW in order for the car to charge at 125kW. Most EA stations at this point in time have multiple 150kW chargers, and many have a single 350kW charger as well. Each of the chargers are clearly labeled with their max charging speed, both physically and in the Electrify America app.

Finally, as regards the note about decreased battery capacity, yes, this is a well-known phenomenon at this point when an EV is frequently fast-charged, whether it's a Tesla, a Bolt, a VW, or any other EV. Too much fast charging will make the battery degrade faster. That's not news.

If you're just going to continue trolling, I won't be responding further.
 

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In case you are confused about kWh and kW let me explain to you so that you understand. kW is kJ / second which is rate of energy. 1 kWh is kJ / sec multiplied by 1 hour (3600 seconds) which equals to 3600 kJ of energy. So let's say the battery pack is 82kWh, then this just means the battery pack stores 82 times 3600 which equals to 295,200 kJ of energy.

This has no relationship to rate of energy transfer (kW) which is how fast you can charge a battery. The charge speed is limited by engineers designing the car to ensure the battery is not damaged during charging process. The faster you transfer energy, the more heat is created, the more you strain the battery. So theoretically VW engineers could have designed it to charge at a much faster speed, but this may have impacted the life of the battery. I trust that the German engineers picked the sweet spot of charge speed vs. battery life.

This is just laws of physics I do not have a source for this info, just my experience as an engineer.
 

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127KW here. It leveled out then slowly ramped down, as it is supposed to, as it approached 80% charge (where I stopped).
3349
 

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Thanks @Kaiserro for taking the time to write this and to document your experiences. I am someone who has personally charged at 124kW but who has also been frustrated by slower charging in certain circumstances. It seems that you have some legitimate points (high consumption, not enough regen, etc) that are being dulled by you concentrating on theoretical injustices (your charging cost in 3 years) while backing your argument with obviously incorrect stats, and lashing out at those who replied politely to correct you.

One question I didn’t see anyone ask, were you in D mode or B mode for the transmission? Were you in Eco or Sport or Comfort? That can make a big difference on driving behavior when you let off the accelerator. I prefer to drive in Sport and B mode all the time, using my right foot to control when I want to speed up, coast or slow down.
 

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I was in Sport/B mode yesterday and [unbeknownst] my wife said it was very smooth when I accelerated through a 4-way stop. Therefore I'll be keeping mine in same as well, recognizing I'll be sacrificing some overall mileage efficiency.

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I prefer to drive in Sport and B mode all the time, using my right foot to control when I want to speed up, coast or slow down.
 

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There is no law of physics that says you cannot charge a battery at a rate greater than 1C (rate in kW = energy capacity in 1 hour).
I agree, that old "don't charge above 1C" number comes from old tech without the liquid cooling and heating and very good BMS that the ID.4 has. A Tesla model 3 with the same 82kwh battery size will hit a max. charge at >200kw at a 250kw supercharger and they have a decent history at this higher charge, and are not reporting any large problems with early degradation. Note that the ID.4 max charge rate is going to be increased in a coming OTA update to 175kw according to multiple good sources (Dustin the director of e-mobility at VW.)
 
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