[brifi]

So I'm a new EV owner, having purchased the ID4 Pro S in July. I love driving the car and everything about it except for the lack of range and the shortage of fast chargers in my region. There's only one EA charging station in the entire state. Hopefully more are on the way. I digress...

During warmer weather I could charge the battery to 80% and the range indicator said that the range was about 230-240. Now the weather is changing in the Upper Midwest and I took a short road trip to a location where I left the car out overnight for 4 nights without driving it and the temperatures dropped into the mid-to-low 30s. On my return trip, a charge to 80%, which took about the same amount of time as it did during the summer months, only got the range indicator to 160-175. I got it home to my garage where the car is charging in a partially enclosed area (warmer than outside, say around 60 degrees) and it doesn't seem to have improved. Does anyone know how long does it take for the effects of being outside to normalize once I return it to the garage? Is this dramatic change something I can expect for the entire winter (and for it to potentially get worse), or am I doing something wrong?

 

[SunWizard]

Battery doesn’t hold charge like it used to [Colder Weather]

I’ve had my id4 since May. Going on 6 months now. Charging from 30 or 40% to 80% to 90% at home every night. At 90% I would start the day with about 235-240 miles. Now it only charges to 200 miles at 90%. I get that the battery might loose power over time but only after 6 months? Where am I...

www.vwidtalk.com

 

[surprising]

Range is based on recent driving - I highly doubt sitting in a warm garage is going to affect it. And I will add 'me too' to range dropping a lot recently with the cold weather. Used to see ~220 miles @ 80, now it's down to ~180. Consumption of most recent drive was 2.5 mi/khw.

 

[brifi]

Range is based on recent driving - I highly doubt sitting in a warm garage is going to affect it. And I will add 'me too' to range dropping a lot recently with the cold weather. Used to see ~220 miles @ 80, now it's down to ~180. Consumption of most recent drive was 2.5 mi/khw.

So then what do I need to do to get the range back to a reasonable point, other than move to a warmer weather climate? I'm charging it right now on a 6.6kw Chargepoint, which tells me that it has given my car an estimated 72 miles. According to Car-Net, its been closer to 40 miles, and its at 68% and 132 mile range. I'm supposed to drive 150 miles away this weekend (in 40 degree weather) and there's no charger in between the two points. I've already shut off everything I can. Am I reading too much into the range indicator?

I might just rent a car at this point...

 

[SunWizard]

Am I reading too much into the range indicator?

Yes see linked thread for much more.

 

[fiehlsport]

You'll be fine for a 150 mile drive even with the heat on. Even 200 miles would be doable. Use auto climate, set it to 68-72 degrees (or whatever you'd set your house to), drive 65-70mph and enjoy. Some people blast the heat or ac at full, which uses way more energy and can make the range indicator go to the extremes.

 

[Nai3t]

Consider that a discharging battery is a chemical reaction. At colder temperatures, chemical reactions occur more slowly, and in this case, less efficiently.

The battery can be warmed to a more efficient temperature. If it's warmed through use (start driving cold, but warming up through discharge) , there remain a bunch of inefficient miles on the odometer. If it's heated using its own power, that's energy expended not propelling the vehicle forward.

The better options are to charge it right up to the point of departure (if it's high enough L2, the charging process will produce latent heat), or to plug it in and let the car use energy from the grid to pre-heat the battery (it's still unclear to me if/how this feature is working in the current software). Even if the car can be plugged in to 120 volts while parked, that's worth something.

Parking in a heated garage will have a similar effect, as the battery will settle at ambient temperature.

But of course, once the vehicle is on the road, increased cabin heating is an electrical draw, as are lights, wipers, defrosters, and resistance from rain and snow. Those will all drag down efficiency.

The good news / bad news is the GOM seems to hone in on a figure once driving for a bit, and doesn't deviate much from that burn rate, so even if it's an uncertain prediction when first kicking off, at least it becomes a somewhat reliable gauge while enroute.

How much of all of this the engineers factor in to the GOM vs. just relying on recent driving history is also an unknown. Hopefully GOM predictions get better as this car's software matures.

Also, if a trip is potentially range critical, I wouldn't hesitate to charge to 100%. That's what all that capacity is there for.

 

[EVone]

So then what do I need to do to get the range back to a reasonable point, other than move to a warmer weather climate? I'm charging it right now on a 6.6kw Chargepoint, which tells me that it has given my car an estimated 72 miles. According to Car-Net, its been closer to 40 miles, and its at 68% and 132 mile range. I'm supposed to drive 150 miles away this weekend (in 40 degree weather) and there's no charger in between the two points. I've already shut off everything I can. Am I reading too much into the range indicator?

I might just rent a car at this point...

Stop charging to 80% for starters ...charge to 100% ..the ID 4 has a 5 kW reserve (82/77 usable ) (my chevy bolt has 109,000 miles on now and still 95% + battery I charge to 100% everyday(and the bolt has no reserve))

If you own your own home set up a Charger in your Garage .. and set ID 4 to make sure you have a full charger at 6am-7am whatever time you leave in the morning. That ensures your batteries are nice and toasty and will increase your range.


Bottm line ..winter range in an EV is not good ..it is NORMAL to lose 20%-40% range


someday it wont be normal..but for now it is what it is

 

[jgoodnough]

VW Technician recently made this post.

Battery temperature management is independent from car-net.
Unless future battery management revisions change this.
Depending on is the EV connected to the L1 or L2 or is it unplugged.
If plugged in it will maintain Battery temp irrelevant from car-net command.
If not plugged to EVSE it will use different algorithm how and when to heat battery.
Example....
Talking from engineering standpoint.
Id4 has mixing valve that will use waisted heat from electronics and motor propulsion to assist in heating battery when necessary ( unplugged)
So with that is more efficient to have different battery temp algorithm.
When plugged to L1 or L2 charger it will move strategy to keep battery pack at all times within calibration parameters without assist from waisted coolant heat loop.
Also when ID4 is charging and mixing valve is sensing temperature below set threshold it will circulate coolant trough the battery pack while charging on L1 or L2.

The basic takeaway is keeping your car on a charger, either L1 or L2 will keep the battery warmer, which will in turn give you better charging results and the best possible range. It's still going to take a hit from very cold temps, but if you set your desired SOC and plan to drive shortly after the car is fully charged to that level, then pre-warm while the car is still on the charger and it should be as good as it's gonna be.

 

[jgoodnough]

I'm charging it right now on a 6.6kw Chargepoint, which tells me that it has given my car an estimated 72 miles. According to Car-Net, its been closer to 40 miles, and its at 68% and 132 mile range.

This discrepancy may be a result of the car drawing power to warm the battery...not charge it. It's also charging, but only a portion of that 6.6 kw draw is going to warm the battery. The Car-Net reading may be correct regarding the amount of power that's been stored in the battery.

 

[MPDubya]

I'm in the Midwest as well, and I'm trading in my eGolf for this reason. I love the eGolf, but it only has 82 miles of range to start, and losing 40% of range to lower efficiency and running the heater doesn't leave a whole lot of distance.

Assuming the guessometer works the same in the eGolf and ID.4, it's entirely dependent on the latest mi/kWh average, so it was pretty common in the summer to park the car after some efficient city driving, charge overnight, then turn it on the next day and get a 100mi range estimate, nearly 20 miles above the usual limit. (This estimated extra range quickly evaporated once I got on the highway again)

 

[JimmyVW]

Another thing to consider is that in colder weather (below 8 Celsius I believe) the car will warm up the battery during driving. For me at 3 degrees Celsius, This takes about 20 minutes and during that 20 minutes it might take 5KW or so for battery heating. After that the usage numbers return pretty much to normal. So if you need to make a long trip, don’t use estimates based on short trips, where battery heating wasn’t done yet.

If you want to maximize range, keep the car sheltered the night before, while on a charger, and preheat the cabin before leaving, so it doesn’t need to waste battery on that as well.
That being said, around freezing and on winter tires my range at 80% is still a not too bad 360 KM.

 

[jgoodnough]

That being said, around freezing and on winter tires my range at 80% is still a not too bad 360 KM.

Thanks so much for providing that info. I've been hoping someone would mention what range they're getting at freezing temps on snow tires. I'm purchasing tires next week and have been wondering about what I can expect. I'll be garaging and charging inside at home and pre-heating before driving. I'm also planning to plug-in on my L1 charger while at work to keep the battery warmed.

 

[JimmyVW]

Always welcome. Sorry you’ll need to do the conversion to miles and other freedom units yourself. Numbers are for 60/40 ish mixed 110km/h freeway and city driving. Mind you that I’m on 19” moderate winter tires not meant for heavy snow. E.g. similar to Pirelli scorpion winters. And I drive the winters on 0.2-0.3 bar more than the summers (so 2.7 front, 2.8 rear) As soon as you need viking contacts, etc for heavy snow, you’ll be using a lot more energy I’d assume

 

[JPWhite]

A 30% loss of range isn't that unexpected with an EV during cold weather.

As for how long your battery will take to return to normal. That might take several days, the battery has a lot of mass and thermal inertia. Once it warms up it will behave as before.

 

[Nai3t]

...the battery has a lot of mass and thermal inertia. Once it warms up it will behave as before.

That's interesting, it got me thinking heating the battery is probably similar to heating up a 1,000 pound block of steel.

That math works out to 500 watts for every 10° F.

If it's 30°F outside, the battery would expend 2.3kW just to warm up to an operating temp of 75° F, which I believe is approximately where the battery cooling system attempts to maintain it.

That's about 3% of the battery capacity, or less than 10 miles range. So obviously only one piece of the total. There's still the cabin warming, the inefficient chemistry, whatever else.

Hmmm... I wonder how that works out in reality? 🤔

 

[SunWizard]

to warm up to an operating temp of 75° F, which I believe is approximately where the battery cooling system attempts to maintain it.

Luckily, According to VW NHTSA docs it always heats until the battery coolant is heated to 46F, and then stops. It then draws heat from coolant from the motor, motor inverter, 12DC converter, or the charger if that is what you are doing.

 

[VW TECHNICIAN]

Example.....battery is at 30°F and left without being plugged to L1 or L2....when you start and go driving it will take 20 or more minutes depending on how much waisted heat ( 50+ MPH will lead to minimum use of coolant heater) to bring it up to 49°F......energy usage for battery coolant heater could be observed with appropriate scanner.
Preheating cabin while plugged will lower energy needs to maintain heat once you start driving and BMS will switch to keep battery at 49°F . So you have minimum impact on energy use for HV Battery.
Front radiator also have on the back side stepper motor that will restrict air flow across the radiator to keep coolant above 49°F if necessary....so irrelevant on the outside temperature....besides one mentioned there are 2 more thermostats that will use best scenario to keep HV Battery temp within calibration parameters.
Only drawback is cabin heater and how owner is using it.
Battery management will have very little effect on energy used.
Using Eco mode and A/C off recirculation on ( considering you are not fighting with humidity)
will use between 1.2-3.0 Kwh ( more occupants more energy will be asked) with outside temperature 20°F .
This is not scenario for short-term drive 5-10 minutes
So let's round up to 4 Kwh on average.....driving for 2 hours is 8 +/- kW. And this is what you should account extra besides trip average when start charging.
1% is equall to 0.77 +/- Kw
Learn to use SOC in % .
So 8 Kwh with 2.7 miles per kWh Example in the winter is 21.6 lost for having good comfort at 74°F.
You can play with any other values but even if you loose 30+ miles on 2 hours drive to the next charging it is well worth it.
2 hours at 65 MPH is good enough for next break and finding next fast DC charger.
Speed warriors will have to be more careful in the winter and less than 2 miles per kW.

 

[John411iD]

Example.....battery is at 30°F and left without being plugged to L1 or L2....when you start and go driving it will take 20 or more minutes depending on how much waisted heat ( 50+ MPH will lead to minimum use of coolant heater) to bring it up to 49°F......energy usage for battery coolant heater could be observed with appropriate scanner.

German video about ID.3 battery heating after start. Battery indeed is heated to 10°C (49°F) with a 5kW PTC heater:

 

[VW TECHNICIAN]

German video about ID.3 battery heating after start. Battery indeed is heated to 10°C (49°F) with a 5kW PTC heater:

But if he was driving it would use waisted heat from electronics loop and less power from battery heater.
And this app he was using is quite good bad PID's and formulas are not quite right vs good app That has right PIDS and proper formulas to display information.
It may improve over time but when I tested it out it was very bad in showing correct information.....