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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Here are some very rough guess charging times for L1 (120Vac) and L2 (240Vac) ID.4 charging, given the 77 kWh (energy) rating of our ID.4 battery.

You can see why so many are saying that 32A charging (7.6kW) will be okay for most. From 7.6kW (32A) to 11kW (48A), 240Vac charging from "empty" varies from about 10 hours to about 7.5 hours. For those few who only have 8 hours of charging time and need a full charge every day (probably a rare use case), 11 kW charging is the way to go. (charging rate is power in "kW" (kilo Watts), energy added is in "kWh" (kilo Watt hours))

This chart also shows the problem with the OEM supplied charger (assuming 12A / 120Vac), where empty to full takes about 55 hours (more than two days!). Also, with an adapter (if that can be done with the VW OEM EVSE), even at 240Vac, it would still take about 26 hours to go from empty to full (which might be fine in some cases).
 

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Thank you for taking the time to put this together, it was helpful for me. I may need to rethink my charging strategy.
Is there a rough idea on miles per kW?
 

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Yes, 250 miles / 77kWh = 3.25 miles/kWh.
i think that’s a very low estimate though. ID.3 reviews from Europe show 3.9 miles/kWh (CarWow), and Chris’/batterytest numbers imply the same. Given very similar WLTP ranges - 324 miles for ID.4, 341 miles for ID.3 - I think we can expect around 3.8 miles/kWh on the freeway if you keep to the speed limit.
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
I agree, maybe about 4 miles/kWh should be doable in good conditions. But, without a heat pump (bummer), we might be looking at 2.5 miles/kWh cold weather highway driving.

In terms of charging miles per hour, wild guess a range of between about 250 miles and 325 miles. Then mph charging (which is weird because it sounds like driving speed, so let's call it mph ch.), is the range/time for each charge rate (power in kW). So, here's what I get, very rough:

1.4 kW (OEM, 120Vac) 55 hours, 5 to 6 mph charging
3 kW (OEM if it can do L2 with adapter) 26 hours, 10 to 13 mph ch.
7.6 kW 10 hours, 25 to 33 mph ch.
9.6 kW 8 hours, 31 to 41 mph ch.
11 kW 7.5 hours, 33 to 43 mph ch.
 

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Thanks for the info. A few more calculations works out to be $0.055/mile for me, which is slightly less than the $0.058/mile it cost to run my TDI.
 

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I think the 0% - 100% charging time is only of theoretical interest. The charging rate in miles of range gained per hour, however, is important.
Equally important to me is charge time for 20% - 80%. Why?
  • I never head to the gas station when my fuel gauge is on E. I go there when I’m in the last quarter of the tank.
  • to keep the battery in top condition it helps NOT to charge to 100%. I plan to charge mine to 80% unless I really need the range.
Hence charge time from 20% to 80% is an important metric. This is also where the 30A vs. 50A circuit question comes in. I will be on a time of use rate schedule where I get super cheap electricity from midnight to 6am. If I can fit a 20-80 charge into that time slot, I win. I.e. a 50A circuit / 11 kW charger is where it’s at for me.
 

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Yes, 250 miles / 77kWh = 3.25 miles/kWh.
i think that’s a very low estimate though. ID.3 reviews from Europe show 3.9 miles/kWh (CarWow), and Chris’/batterytest numbers imply the same. Given very similar WLTP ranges - 324 miles for ID.4, 341 miles for ID.3 - I think we can expect around 3.8 miles/kWh on the freeway if you keep to the speed limit.
The full battery capacity is 82 kWh so they are nerfing the battery a bit to prevent us charging it full and inducing premature failure. I have the Honda clarity EV now and they do the same. I've been charging to full every day for the last 3 years and 30,000 miles and have only noticed very minimal capacity loss (approx. 5%). My cousin with an e-golf has had similar experience charging to full every night but he drives a lot more and has almost 80k miles on his. I know I'm an anecdote but I trust the VW engineers put this nerf in very thoughtfully to prevent degredation and maximize range.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I think the 0% - 100% charging time is only of theoretical interest. The charging rate in miles of range gained per hour, however, is important.
Equally important to me is charge time for 20% - 80%. Why?
  • I never head to the gas station when my fuel gauge is on E. I go there when I’m in the last quarter of the tank.
  • to keep the battery in top condition it helps NOT to charge to 100%. I plan to charge mine to 80% unless I really need the range.
Hence charge time from 20% to 80% is an important metric. This is also where the 30A vs. 50A circuit question comes in. I will be on a time of use rate schedule where I get super cheap electricity from midnight to 6am. If I can fit a 20-80 charge into that time slot, I win. I.e. a 50A circuit / 11 kW charger is where it’s at for me.
All good points! I think the jury is out on the 20%-80% charge question vs. battery life, however it cannot hurt.

Here is the same table for 20% to 80% (still theoretical until we see the charger in action, also not accounting for any loss in the in the actual "charger" in the car.
 

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I move a lot and am considering trying to work with the level 1 charger and I do have an EA (station literally 1 minute away). So paying every couple years for a level 2 install seems a lot for me, until I can settle for good in about 8 years. I also currently only have a ~20 mile round trip a day to work Monday through Friday. We’ll see how charging needs change post Covid with more stuff open/to do.

someone tell me if I’m dumb
 

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Discussion Starter #10
  • to keep the battery in top condition it helps NOT to charge to 100%. I plan to charge mine to 80% unless I really need the range.
Hence charge time from 20% to 80% is an important metric.
The full battery capacity is 82 kWh so they are nerfing the battery a bit to prevent us charging it full and inducing premature failure. I have the Honda clarity EV ... but I trust the VW engineers put this nerf in very thoughtfully to prevent degredation and maximize range.
Nissan LEAF, at least the early models, all lost significant capacity over years. Others, with better liquid temperature control, charging profiles, and battery management systems (BMS), seem to have less loss.

It certainly can't hurt to run 20% to 80%. However, it is possible that degradation over 4,000 charging cycles is minimal, and maybe the real difference in charge use cases shows at 10,000 cycles, or tens of thousands of cycles (many years for most folks).

Some in catastrophe prone areas (fires?, floods?) may lean towards 95% charging to be ready in case they need a fast exit.

OTOH, Chevy Bolt had "hill top" mode, so if you start out on a hill and want to use regen on the way down, you need some "room" to store the braking energy. Later, they added % max charge for those who wanted to cap a charge. Hyundai did the same for Ioniq electric, but does not seem to work with my 2019, probably begins with the 2020 model.

For those planning a few years ownership, it's probably a non-issue. If you might be looking at 6 to 10 years, maybe?

A very closely related question is what is the impact of repeated fast charging? Fast charging could be more damaging in terms of battery capacity degradation, more possible irony because of the free three years of EA fast charging!
 

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I move a lot and am considering trying to work with the level 1 charger and I do have an EA (station literally 1 minute away). So paying every couple years for a level 2 install seems a lot for me, until I can settle for good in about 8 years. I also currently only have a ~20 mile round trip a day to work Monday through Friday. We’ll see how charging needs change post Covid with more stuff open/to do.

someone tell me if I’m dumb
I am retired but I do volunteer work 3 days a week, 30-40 miles RT the days I volunteer. I am going to start with the L1 charger at home, especially if I can wire it for 220, and see what happens. The nearest EA charger to me is 1.5 hrs away. Although 3 miles from my house is a L2 charger that is free that I will use if I run the batteries down below 50%. No sense in passing on free power.
Can't hurt to try L1 first, you can always add the L2 later if needed, especially if you have an EA station so close.
 

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I don
I move a lot and am considering trying to work with the level 1 charger and I do have an EA (station literally 1 minute away). So paying every couple years for a level 2 install seems a lot for me, until I can settle for good in about 8 years. I also currently only have a ~20 mile round trip a day to work Monday through Friday. We’ll see how charging needs change post Covid with more stuff open/to do.

someone tell me if I’m dumb
i don’t think you have to stick to L1, or that L2 requires a wall box. You can plug the car into a dryer or RV outlet and enjoy the much higher charge rate. And hopefully you can program the car as to when you want to charge, how long and how much. Does anyone know what VW’s software and app support in this regard?
 

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I don


i don’t think you have to stick to L1, or that L2 requires a wall box. You can plug the car into a dryer or RV outlet and enjoy the much higher charge rate. And hopefully you can program the car as to when you want to charge, how long and how much. Does anyone know what VW’s software and app support in this regard?
my only dryer outlet is upstairs. I’d still need some installation. I actually wouldn’t mind the wall box, my utility company will give up to 500$ rebate for purchase of one. Just not sure electrician cost for install.
 

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I move a lot and am considering trying to work with the level 1 charger and I do have an EA (station literally 1 minute away). So paying every couple years for a level 2 install seems a lot for me, until I can settle for good in about 8 years. I also currently only have a ~20 mile round trip a day to work Monday through Friday. We’ll see how charging needs change post Covid with more stuff open/to do.

someone tell me if I’m dumb
There is a federal tax credit of 30% for purchase and install and Snohomish County PUD will rebate you $500 on a connected charger. Both have been a consideration for me as I otherwise could live off a L1, have a EA 1.5 miles away and numerous free L2's in the business parks near my home.
 

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It certainly can't hurt to run 20% to 80%. However, it is possible that degradation over 4,000 charging cycles is minimal, and maybe the real difference in charge use cases shows at 10,000 cycles, or tens of thousands of cycles (many years for most folks).
Agree completely. My experience with the clarity is that there is no option to set the charge to stop at some capacity, so charging to full is purely out of convenience. My cousins e-golf is the same, but he has the discipline to manually unplug it before it gets a full charge. so I'm wondering if VW will include this feature in the ID4, it would be nice.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
VW recommends charging to 80% for everyday use. Well I guess the jury is in for that question, at least for VW.
 

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VW recommends charging to 80% for everyday use. Well I guess the jury is in for that question, at least for VW.
It is weird given as others have pointed out 100% isn't really 100%. It would be interesting to hear VW's logic. I wonder how and from whom we could get such an explanation. I won't feel comfortable charging to 100% regularly since it doesn't follow their recommendation, but it doesn't appear logical at this point.

Has anyone read anything that explains how reserve capacity is used on an everyday basis? For example...Is the reserve capacity not used at all, other than keeping minimum charge on those cells? or does the battery management system regularly swap out the cells that are considered the reserve...just to keep all cells in good health? or is reserve capacity used for something else?
 

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VW recommends charging to 80% for everyday use. Well I guess the jury is in for that question, at least for VW.
The question I have is; is it 80% of 82kWh, total battery capacity or 80% of 77kWh the 'net' capacity?
Not that there is much difference.
80% of 82= 66kWh
80% of 77= 62kWh
 

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The question I have is; is it 80% of 82kWh, total battery capacity or 80% of 77kWh the 'net' capacity?
Not that there is much difference.
80% of 82= 66kWh
80% of 77= 62kWh
It would be 80% of 77= 62kWh (think of it more of 80% of 250 miles = 200 miles)
 
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