[roscoetuff]

Found this youtube that does more to explain the scheduled charging than I'd seen. Maybe you'll find it helpful.

 

[roscoetuff]

So this time, I'm assuming that IF the scheduled charge didn't work before (and it didn't), the fault was mine. Having watched this, I'm pretty sure the START to the charge is controlled NOT by the start time set in the schedule, but by the end time and the variable of time needed to charge the battery from the SOC at the start to the target SOC. Because I have about 170 miles left this puts me above my "Immediate Charge if below..." (which I set to 20% as suggested in the video). My guess is that if 250 is normally 80% of 312, then 170 is 54% of the same. I've allowed a START time for the charge window to be 10:15pm and the end time to be 2:00am. Most of my charges at home were over in less than 4 hours, so this should be plenty. I'd use a bigger window if I had more confidence in the system, but with its "known" incorrigibility, the small window should get this thing started quickly.

I've also followed with clicking Departure time of 8:30am (I try to go on the commute AFTER the rush since COVID forced me to drive the whole distance - rather than ride the train), and cabin temp to 74 degrees. This tests everything that the video shows. We'll see what happens. If it doesn't work, then I'm fine with heading over to Sam's Club and the Electrify America DC Fast Charger there. If I have to do that, then this scheduling thing really isn't working, and it is NOT user error as I'm trying to assume, but instead it's the whole Infotainment software.

Tomorrow a.m., I'll post the results.

 

[roscoetuff]

AND.... the results are in: Last night's scheduled charge took the car from 170mile up to 193 miles of prospective range. All in 4 hours. I was SOOoooooooooo happy I tipped the mice working the treadmill generator a piece of cheese.

Seriously.

How pathetic is that? Wait for it.... no.... not yet... wait for it..... yes, it's so pathetic, Car-net quit working in protest. I kid you not. This is the SAME Car-net that quit working last week and had to be restarted with a call to.... none other than Car-net. At Car-net, I'm thinking Jimmy Carter was re-elected last November after an extremely close vote. Yes, they are THAT far out of touch.... which is odd for software on the one hand, but particularly odd for software whose whole premise is enhancing the user experience. I guess VW has a definition of the user that doesn't include me - yet?

So I got in the car, deleted the location and tried to restart charging. This wasn't as easy as it should have been. Fact is it kept showing that delayed charging was in progress. Kept right on deleting it a few times, and FINALLY got recharging restarted with the on-demand charging. We should be done soon. Last I checked, we were up to 71% capacity at 231 miles in 1 hour of charging.

So much for the saga of user error. I think this defines that you can get it to start a deferred (or scheduled) charge, but you can't get it to run at the same pace. Seriously.... 4 hours to add 20 miles of range? That's a pace to require 11 hours or so to charge a more typical 70% "refill". This is a complete and utter failure.

I'm not VW, but if I were, I'd be embarrassed. Completely embarrassed to have such a poor performance. I'd crush that 3 month update and apologetically rush out a fix for this immediately. This is just completely unacceptable. Better to not offer scheduled charging at all in the meantime than to offer a feature that not only fails, but 1) runs at a laughing pace if at all, 2) doesn't warn that you should "not attempt this at home" unless you have a DC FastCharger nearby in case it fails.... which it does LOL! (VW Engineering Dept.... my bad)" and 3) disables the software connection to the car ("Bonus points! VW Engineering Dept. ....again. Don't you love us?"). Yep, that VW Engineering Dept is a fun loving bunch of guys! ("Serves you right.... you stupid Americans!" - VW Engineering"). Give it up guys.

What this means is that VW has a pretty decent car....I like it and it is both a head turner (for many) and it drives well (by my practical standards) but as an EV car where software plays a significant role in making things easy that might otherwise be hidden deep in the toolkit, they've clearly rushed out with their car before it was "done". VW? You can do better. Pick up your game. First step should be to fix the broken pieces of your software IMMEDIATELY, and THEN upgrade them. Step one shouldn't wait for Step Two which is clearly a move to tighter, more finished code - fully debugged. The latter takes a clearer idea of what you're trying to accomplish and NOT a one-size serves two completely different ways of thinking. You can keep your crazy back window buttons and childproof locks on the driver's door... that was an idea almost as bad as some of your Infotainment fails that we'll somehow just have to live with.... but you can make amends by fixing these small things.

End of rant.

 

[Huey52]

I gave up on scheduled charging early on and won't revisit until the next official OTA firmware update. Same for "unlock when charged."

 

[ExCivilian]

I'm pretty sure the START to the charge is controlled NOT by the start time set in the schedule, but by the end time and the variable of time needed to charge the battery from the SOC at the start to the target SOC.

This is how it's supposed to work (and as you found--doesn't) and one of the reasons it's important to all drivers rather than just TOU customers.

I'm less optimistic than others about what is coming down the chute in the future given my conversations with upper support management and their candid responses that there is no Tiger Team after all, support is now being routed through standard channels (rather than a dedicated channel to ensure a smooth ID4 rollout), and they just don't have a good track record of updating their software post-release.

But I'd like to be wrong on my conclusions because it's an awesome car otherwise. As you pointed out, though, in an EV the electronics are a significant piece of the puzzle.

 

[roscoetuff]

Good points. Took a look at Ars Technica and they've got an article about VW (back in 2019) focusing a separate group for car software. Expectations are high for 2025. In the meantime.... I find Ford's, Volvo's and Polestar's decisions to use Google's Android Auto system might offer a better route for VW as well:

Ford is switching to Android OS for infotainment in 2023

This stuff is probably a lot harder than VW thought. Clearly.

 

[TPG]

Good points. Took a look at Ars Technica and they've got an article about VW (back in 2019) focusing a separate group for car software. Expectations are high for 2025. In the meantime.... I find Ford's, Volvo's and Polestar's decisions to use Google's Android Auto system might offer a better route for VW as well:

Ford is switching to Android OS for infotainment in 2023

This stuff is probably a lot harder than VW thought. Clearly.

Hopefully VW will fix the scheduled charging problem and other major bugs by 2025. They won't have much business if they do not.

 

[CentCoastScott]

Good points. Took a look at Ars Technica and they've got an article about VW (back in 2019) focusing a separate group for car software. Expectations are high for 2025. In the meantime.... I find Ford's, Volvo's and Polestar's decisions to use Google's Android Auto system might offer a better route for VW as well:

Ford is switching to Android OS for infotainment in 2023

This stuff is probably a lot harder than VW thought. Clearly.

Have to say, I really dislike Google and Amazon. It is everywhere and would rather deal with a few bugs then have it invade my car.

 

[Nai3t]

This is a response posted yesterday by an ID.4 owner on the Facebook group:

This is officially VW’s position on the scheduled charging fault:​

Reference # 0473xxxx​

Dear Mr. xxxxxx,​

At this time, there is no information on when the fix will be available other than, it will not be something that will be available in the next couple of weeks or maybe even months. I am sorry you were originally advised that your charger was the issue when clearly that is not the case. I will continue to monitor this situation for updates and will touch base with you again no later than the close of business on June 11, 2021 with any updates we may have at that time. I am sorry, I wish I had better information to provide to you on this situation.​

Sincerely,​

Keith B.
Region Case Manager​

​

 

[ExCivilian]

Cross your fingers that First Edition owners get an update to this at all. I've mentioned before, the first edition eGolfs were never updated to address their (similar) charging issues.

I was going to point out some options for owners but I realize now that there's no explicit marketing for this feature. If they leave it in, owners might be able to force action via multiple dealership visits for a non-functional feature. However, to give you an idea of the entity we're dealing with here, a Euro ID.3 owner was unable to get Android Auto to link and after his second visit they updated his firmware to remove the capability altogether (and then claimed they didn't sell the car with Android Auto as an explicit feature so he is SOL).

So while the newcomers to the VW family are excited about OTAs must remember it also gives VW the ability to simply remove problematic functions that they don't or can't resolve.

 

[roscoetuff]

"So while the newcomers to the VW family are excited about OTAs must remember it also gives VW the ability to simply remove problematic functions that they don't or can't resolve."

Understood. Also have seen the Tesla's updates tend to reduce range in the same way that Apple iOS updates add memory requirements on old phones that eventually make them unworkable. "Buy a new phone!"

Maybe the new ownership model is lease (my approach this time) and kick it back to the factory so it can recycle the parts... rather than fix them. VW will be in trouble if the OTA doesn't become a serious advantage rather than a faux marketing department fiction with nothing behind it.

 

[Huey52]

My 2017 iMac ran just fine until the latest iterations of MacOS Big Sur (now slow to boot, despite the solid state Fusion drive portion that is supposed to speed same). But then 4 years in computers is like dog years!! And our vehicles are ever closer to being computers first.

It does appear that VW removed/greyed out some problematic charging options at my 60-day service. But then I did pre-provide them my Festivus airing of grievances. "Ok smarty pants, we'll just delete it." 😆

"So while the newcomers to the VW family are excited about OTAs must remember it also gives VW the ability to simply remove problematic functions that they don't or can't resolve."

Understood. Also have seen the Tesla's updates tend to reduce range in the same way that Apple iOS updates add memory requirements on old phones that eventually make them unworkable. "Buy a new phone!"

Maybe the new ownership model is lease (my approach this time) and kick it back to the factory so it can recycle the parts... rather than fix them. VW will be in trouble if the OTA doesn't become a serious advantage rather than a faux marketing department fiction with nothing behind it.

 

[Timbobh]

It is definitely malpractice that scheduled charging from the vehicle OS does not work properly. This needs to be made right by VW via OTA as soon as possible.

In the meantime, is there any reason why my Chargepoint HomeFlex hooked up at 40 amps can not handle the scheduled charging? I've seen mention on this forum about some kind of issues with the car not being able to condition its battery correctly, but I have not been able to find reports of this elsewhere. The car seems to do just fine on a trickle charge or using fast charging. Why would it be different for a Level 2 home charger? Ideally, I will be switching to a TOU billing schedule shortly so scheduled charging will be of significant relevance to me. I think I just don't understand the dynamics that are in play when charging the car on a schedule, so if someone with more knowledge can explain to me...that would be great.

 

[Nai3t]

Well, not dynamics per se. Your Home Flex will do fine with scheduled charging.

The complaint is if the car isn't controlling the charging, isn't aware of a departure time, then it can't heat the battery for optimum efficiency. The Home Flex can't do that; the car needs to be involved.

This isn't a huge deal in moderate climates, but can decrease the car's range and performance when it's cold.

 

[Timbobh]

Well, not dynamics per se. Your Home Flex will do fine with scheduled charging.

The complaint is if the car isn't controlling the charging, isn't aware of a departure time, then it can't heat the battery for optimum efficiency. The Home Flex can't do that; the car needs to be involved.

I'm sorry but I think I am still not understanding well enough. Is the departure time needed for optimal battery heating so that the car drives more efficiently from the start? Or are you saying the battery is not heating properly during charging, which harms the battery? Currently, is my car not involved with battery heating when I use my Level 1 charger without a departure time?

 

[roscoetuff]

Maybe this story is more on the mark than we thought:

https://cleantechnica.com/2020/07/13/volkswagens-top-software-guy-is-dropped/

 

[ExCivilian]

I'm sorry but I think I am still not understanding well enough. Is the departure time needed for optimal battery heating so that the car drives more efficiently from the start? Or are you saying the battery is not heating properly during charging, which harms the battery? Currently, is my car not involved with battery heating when I use my Level 1 charger without a departure time?

It’s not just pre-conditioning the battery.

By now I’m sure you’re aware that the batteries in our vehicle should not be stored below 20% nor above 80% for any length of time. Their optimal storage capacity is 50%. So let’s imagine you save home at 5pm with 8% capacity and you’re leaving at 8am the next morning. Ideally, and with a working in-car scheduler, you’d plug the vehicle in when you get home and walk inside your house. The vehicle should immediately charge to 20% then wait until after 9pm (or whatever your TOU window is) and then start charging at a rate that would have it charged to 80% at 8am before you leave in the morning. With your charger, it will simply charge within whatever window you tell it to regardless of its current charge state or the batteries’ best storage state. You plug it in when you get home, it waits until 9pm and then it charges until 8am even if that window charges it all the way to 100%. Maybe you set the window to 9pm to 6am and it charges to 90%…or 70%…it’s end charge state depends on it’s initial charge state because a smart EVSE is still dumb in that it can’t communicate with the vehicle to understand the current charge level—it just delivers whatever the vehicle tells it to.

Over time, this will do more damage to the longevity of the battery than one with a working scheduler. Of some people think this is too minor of an issue to worry about, then there is also no point in that person worrying about leaving their vehicle <20% charge, >80% charge, or using DCFC all the time. However, you’ll note that many here are simultaneously concerned about those issues without being concerned about the charge scheduler being non-functional; owners need to be concerned about this issue as much as they are worried about the longevity of their batteries in other ways, too.

 

[Timbobh]

With your charger, it will simply charge within whatever window you tell it to regardless of its current charge state or the batteries’ best storage state. You plug it in when you get home, it waits until 9pm and then it charges until 8am even if that window charges it all the way to 100%. Maybe you set the window to 9pm to 6am and it charges to 90%…or 70%…it’s end charge state depends on it’s initial charge state because a smart EVSE is still dumb in that it can’t communicate with the vehicle to understand the current charge level—it just delivers whatever the vehicle tells it to.

Won't the "smart" EVSE be unable to deliver charge once it reaches 80% if I set the charging maximum to 80% in the vehicle? This works perfectly for me when L1 charging, which also cannot communicate with the car and would deliver electricity indefinitely if the car did not stop it. So I see that without a departure time set, the car might arrive at 80% early and thus sit for an unnecessary length of time that depends on the initial SOC. I agree that the size of a deal this is depends on the user, targeted charge level, and length of time.

My understanding is that the lower rates of charging are more consistent than what's seen at fast chargers. Therefore, a work around albeit an inconvenience, would be to back calculate the amount of time required to achieve your desired SOC using a L2 EVSE and set your start time to allow for just enough charging time. I'm not familiar enough with the car's preconditioning system yet to know if you precondition the battery when you initiate a preconditioning of the cabin, but maybe that's something that can be done when getting ready to leave through the app, terrible as it might be.

I want to emphasize that I agree the car scheduler needs to be fixed by VW promptly. There is no excuse for this "bug". I am just trying to figure out how to make the most of my new car, which I enjoy immensely so far.

 

[ExCivilian]

Won't the "smart" EVSE be unable to deliver charge once it reaches 80% if I set the charging maximum to 80% in the vehicle?

Yes, for some people this works while others have reported their upper limit threshold is being ignored by the software program. If yours works, that would be one way to (sub-optimally) work around the scenario I described. Do keep in mind I was detailing hypothetical scenarios as a heuristic device because you were requesting to understand the situation better. Now that you do, you can react according to your personal concerns and workarounds. So while your workaround will still have the vehicle sitting at 80% charge for some undetermined time (which is sub-par to having it charge below 80% until your exact departure time) it might be less of a concern to you than others. The other workaround you described, manual calculation, is also possibly and arguably better for the battery but you're essentially doing the work the software should be doing at that point (and the parameters will change frequently from day to day usage). It still won't allow for the BMS to correctly apply the best charge curve for optimal battery longevity because the BMS can make varying adjustments to how the cells are being charged whereas the EVSE will simply turn on/off according to the schedule set and the vehicle telling it to send electrons over once the EVSE's schedule turns it on.

Ideally, you'd want the vehicle plugged in always and allow the BMS to keep it conditioned and within optimal charge levels at all times. I wouldn't be surprised to find a significant over-representation of CA owners on this board in this early adoption phase so these issues will largely seem insignificant until the batteries start to show the effects with age. But for someone in a CA desert with daily temps over 100F or someone in Wisconsin with daily temps below 40F it's going to be much more significant of an issue within a shorter timeframe.

As for pre-conditioning the battery or pre-conditioning the cabin with Car-Net, that would be one workaround if not for the fact Car-Net is also in the software mess that VW has created for itself and drops out more often than it works. One of the ways it consistently failed for the eGolf was that the car went into some level of sleep overnight, which is a problem that seems to be replicated on the ID.4. So while you would think you'd be able to pre-condition the car with Car-Net odds are that you'll need to walk to your vehicle to wake it up in order to get Car-Net to connect to the darn thing obviating the use of Car-Net. The other concern is that "pre-conditioning" is something of a misnomer since a properly working BMS should always be conditioning a battery.

We tend to toss individual cells into drawers and wherever because they're a couple dollars. Back when rechargeable cells were $10/each consumers were much more careful with them. Some still use specialized chargers to maintain their individual cells but I think the mainstream just replaces them when they start to struggle. Then we progressed to portable devices and, again, people have varying degrees of care regarding their consumer device battery conditions depending on budget, time, and knowledge of the concern. Some of us will have similar relationships with our $40K+ vehicles and their $20K+ battery packs--some using them like paper napkins with others treating them like the disposable, rare earth metals that they currently are. It's VW's job to make the software do the heavy lifting so everyone can treat the vehicle like a paper napkin while the BMS protects the battery pack like the disposable, rare earth metal it is.

 

[Timbobh]

Yes, for some people this works while others have reported their upper limit threshold is being ignored by the software program. If yours works, that would be one way to (sub-optimally) work around the scenario I described. Do keep in mind I was detailing hypothetical scenarios as a heuristic device because you were requesting to understand the situation better. Now that you do, you can react according to your personal concerns and workarounds. So while your workaround will still have the vehicle sitting at 80% charge for some undetermined time (which is sub-par to having it charge below 80% until your exact departure time) it might be less of a concern to you than others. The other workaround you described, manual calculation, is also possibly and arguably better for the battery but you're essentially doing the work the software should be doing at that point (and the parameters will change frequently from day to day usage). It still won't allow for the BMS to correctly apply the best charge curve for optimal battery longevity because the BMS can make varying adjustments to how the cells are being charged whereas the EVSE will simply turn on/off according to the schedule set and the vehicle telling it to send electrons over once the EVSE's schedule turns it on.

Ideally, you'd want the vehicle plugged in always and allow the BMS to keep it conditioned and within optimal charge levels at all times. I wouldn't be surprised to find a significant over-representation of CA owners on this board in this early adoption phase so these issues will largely seem insignificant until the batteries start to show the effects with age. But for someone in a CA desert with daily temps over 100F or someone in Wisconsin with daily temps below 40F it's going to be much more significant of an issue within a shorter timeframe.

As for pre-conditioning the battery or pre-conditioning the cabin with Car-Net, that would be one workaround if not for the fact Car-Net is also in the software mess that VW has created for itself and drops out more often than it works. One of the ways it consistently failed for the eGolf was that the car went into some level of sleep overnight, which is a problem that seems to be replicated on the ID.4. So while you would think you'd be able to pre-condition the car with Car-Net odds are that you'll need to walk to your vehicle to wake it up in order to get Car-Net to connect to the darn thing obviating the use of Car-Net. The other concern is that "pre-conditioning" is something of a misnomer since a properly working BMS should always be conditioning a battery.

Thank you for the very thorough response. We decided to buy instead of lease due to a projected use of 25-30k miles per year. Therefore, I am extremely invested in protecting my battery for as long as possible so I appreciate all of this information and perspective in order to make the best decisions I can. I live in the upper midwest where the summers are perfect EV weather, but much of the year is 40F and below like you said. What does the car do to manage the battery when parked and not charging? For example, it is difficult for me to charge at work so the battery must get pretty cold in the winter while it sits unplugged. I assumed that the BMS would limit how cold the battery gets while it waits for me to start up the car and drive home. Does the car not do this in my garage while charging on a L2 EVSE? Or perhaps the BMS only does the bare minimum when not plugged in and could be doing much better if more energy was available via plug?

Sorry for all my follow-up thoughts and questions. I really do appreciate the feedback. I've found the dealer to be worse than useless when I pose any question even approaching something technical.