Volkswagen ID Forum banner

So You Are Thinking About Buying an ID.4 - Some of my Thoughts

10K views 55 replies 26 participants last post by  ExCivilian 
#1 ·
My Id.4 now has over 8000 miles. Overall the ID4 is a great car. Inexpensive to operate, wonderful ride, comfortable inside the cab, large cargo capacity, easy to drive, and looks pleasing. I just came off a 1000 mile cross country trip and had no issues finding EA charging stations. But in my opinion the ID4 has some irritating flaws. First of all many of the EA charging stations DO NOT work. Of the eight I used on the recent trip four of them had chargers that were not functioning. This causes delays in one's trip. The average time to charge is about 40 to 50 minutes (this includes finding a charger and plugging in) - longer if you have to find a charger that works! On this same trip the Car-Net failed to function for the last several days. It is still not working. Another annoying aspect of the ID4 is the unrelatability of its safety features. Often the warning light in the right mirror comes on when there is NO traffic in the right lane. Sometimes the lane departure and cruise control fail for a while and then function again. Most annoying is the fact that the overhead lights do not come on when opening the doors, unless the doors have been locked. The seat memory function fails to remember the seat back adjustment when setting itself. The navigation system is antiquated. There is no lighting for the heat/ac and volume controls. Fortunately, the voice commands can control those functions. There is no 12 volt outlet in the passenger area. I owned a Hyundai Ioniq for two years before selling it and purchasing the ID4. I had no little nagging issues with the Ioniq! I sometimes think that if I had known the Id4 was so quirky I would not have bought it. VW could have done better.
 
See less See more
#2 ·
These are all valid points, but I think in the end, it comes down to affordability and availability.
I can easily pick one up at the moment, not so much if I look for a 3 or Y, and don't even get me started with the Korean brands or Chevy. Then there is the full tax credit and free charging for 3 years, yeah, I put up with a few annoyances and save a lot of money. So far I have charged predominantly with EA with only minor issues, 8%- 80% only takes 25 isch minutes so really not that bad. It all comes down to priorities. For me the money-saving aspect of tax credit and free charging for 3 years was unbeatable as I am close to an EA charger and taking full advantage of it.
 
#8 ·
These are all valid points, but I think in the end, it comes down to affordability and availability.
I can easily pick one up at the moment, not so much if I look for a 3 or Y, and don't even get me started with the Korean brands or Chevy. Then there is the full tax credit and free charging for 3 years, yeah, I put up with a few annoyances and save a lot of money. So far I have charged predominantly with EA with only minor issues, 8%- 80% only takes 25 isch minutes so really not that bad. It all comes down to priorities. For me the money-saving aspect of tax credit and free charging for 3 years was unbeatable as I am close to an EA charger and taking full advantage of it.
I question why folks are buying EVs to save money because EVs have the worst depreciation of all vehicles and that is the biggest cost to owning/leasing. The cost of gas savings can not make up for it either.

Don’t get me wrong I love EVs but financially I should have bought an Outback or RAV4 to save money.
 
#3 ·
I just read in another post that the EU version of ID.4 has 'hill assist' / 'auto hold' when the car is stopped.

My ID.4 rolls backwards at stoplights here in Southern California as almost no road is flat.

Its unexpected for a modern vehicle to do this and I have to retrain myself to keep foot on brake and apply 'gas' so i dont roll into car behind me!!!

Why did they disable auto hold for USA??
 
#4 ·
Not sure why, but from what I heard, the plugin and charge, and auto hold are part of the next OTA update.
I also would like to see one pedal driving added, it's mind-boggling to me why they at least not even gave us the option for it, but as I said I put up with this as overall the ID4 is a very good deal at the moment as long as you stick with the RWD Pro model, once you go the higher trim levels and add AWD, the Mustang MachE becomes very compelling.
 
#19 ·
The EA issue can’t be blamed on the ID.4 imho. If you had bought an Ionic 5, EV 6, or Volvo XC40, you would have the exact same issues with broken chargers.
I see this as teething issues, for the charging infra to come to maturity.
The others are valid and annoying and I do hope they’ll get dealt with swiftly in the upcoming updates.
EA is a VW company that they ncreatwed and invested in!
 
#7 ·
Yeah it’s just weird and different behavior from what I’m used too. I never use auto-hold, and the car never really rolls back, it will always creep on me, upon release of the brake. Let that be forward or backward, hill or flat.
It can rock a bit when it goes backwards into a pothole (and you are driving backwards), but if you then leave it be, it will power through it eventually. And this is all without touching the go-pedal.
Guess this matches the video from ID.Furkan demonstrating the behavior on an incline.
 
#15 ·
Ok, I’ve just spend 10 minutes on a hill testing it out, and think I understand it now. I’m really used to ease off the brake, slowly transitioning from brake to power. In that case the electro motor picks up the power needed to hold the car / get rolling. Holding the brake lightly so the car just barely sits without moving keeps the drive train engaged.

If I stomp on the brakes, sit there for a while and then abruptly let go, the car rolls a foot or so, before the motor picks up and compensates. Mind you this is all with autohold disabled.

Anyone who is regularly “suffering” from the lack of autohold, that can try if above method makes any difference to them?!
 
#13 ·
I have never owned a vehicle without three pedals. It took me a while to figure out what these folks are talking about! :oops:

You'll enjoy the energy management of free-rolling in 'D'. Some driving modes do a light regen in 'D'. Make sure you find the free-rolling one. You can move to 'B' mode for regen while in motion similar to a downshift. IMHO, it beats the hell out of any automatic I have ever driven.
 
#17 ·
I too wish my Pro had hill hold. And I wish I received an e-mailed report each month on the status of each system and the individual tire pressures, like I did in my '17 Bolt. ( GM checks those systems over the air each month).
And I wish I wasn't getting so many ghost messages. (Actually I seem to be getting less lately with 10K miles on car).
Still, so far, my Pro is the best car I have ever owned. Contrast Pro with a '12 Honda CR-V that I owned that wanted to rollover any time a sudden input was given to the steering to avoid an accident or debris in the road. All SUV's are inherently unstable compared to dedicated BEV SUVs with their lower center of gravity. So even if ICE SUVs seem to be a better value, it's no contest in my view.
 
#21 ·
I too wish my Pro had hill hold. And I wish I received an e-mailed report each month on the status of each system and the individual tire pressures, like I did in my '17 Bolt. ( GM checks those systems over the air each month).
You're never going to get a report from VW that includes tire pressures because the car doesn't know how much pressure it has in any tire - There are no TPMS sensors in the wheels

Don
 
#37 ·
The computer knows the speed of the motor and the speed of each wheel. If, over time, due to temperature changes, the wheels are constantly turning faster than when the tire pressure memory was re-set, the computer knows the pressure is down. It also knows if one tire is turning faster than the others indicating a possible leak. It does take a significant pressure drop ( e.g. 6psi) before the computer will announce the issue.
 
#38 ·
Yes, it knows the relative speed of each wheel from the wheel speed sensors in the ABS system. Of course, if they are all getting low together due to temperature change or something it may not say anything, so you should still check your tire pressures seasonally.
 
  • Like
Reactions: theboomr
#41 ·
I'm closing in on 10K miles on our 1st edition and I have experienced zero issues. I'm sorry others seem to have to put up with these quirks. I have a 2400 mile (round trip) road trip coming up towards the end of October. Electrify America stations along my entire route seem pretty reliable according to Plugshare. Hope to have my dash cam hard wired in before I begin that trip.

So happy with this vehicle, it's a joy to drive and I think it looks pretty damn good too.
 
#45 ·
I've been driving EV's for 9 years and I do agree that in most cases, they're more expensive to own and drive than your average ICE. Obviously doesn't bother me too much - The ID.4 is my fourth one

jimmack's lease payments add up to $18K, plus the $2.5K you got for your trade in comes to $20.5K. For that, you get to rent a car for 3 years and drive 36,000 miles. That's roughly 60 cents per mile for 'depreciation' not counting any other expenses incurred in driving it 36,000 miles. That's pretty expensive, in my book

If you had bought an ICE outright for $30K and kept it for 10 years and drove it 12,000 miles per year, your cost per mile for depreciation would be 25 cents per mile (even less if you count what you can sell the car for after 10 years - Call it 20 cents per mile, or 1/3rd of what your EV costs per mile to drive) plus whatever other expenses you had for driving it 120,000 miles. When you sold that ICE after 10 years, with 120,000 miles on it, you would likely get more money for it than a 10 year old EV - Trust me, I have a couple of $30K EV's which will be 10 years old next year and they are currently work less than 10% of what they cost new, regardless of how many miles they have on them. The ICE would easily beat that, double or triple

To 'make financial sense' out of owning an EV, you need to buy it, keep it for a very long time and even then you're better off not looking back and comparing the numbers, because they probably still don't add up

But, we're helping to save the planet and that's worth something!

Don
 
#46 ·
I've been driving EV's for 9 years and I do agree that in most cases, they're more expensive to own and drive than your average ICE. Obviously doesn't bother me too much - The ID.4 is my fourth one

jimmack's lease payments add up to $18K, plus the $2.5K you got for your trade in comes to $20.5K. For that, you get to rent a car for 3 years and drive 36,000 miles. That's roughly 60 cents per mile for 'depreciation' not counting any other expenses incurred in driving it 36,000 miles. That's pretty expensive, in my book

If you had bought an ICE outright for $30K and kept it for 10 years and drove it 12,000 miles per year, your cost per mile for depreciation would be 25 cents per mile (even less if you count what you can sell the car for after 10 years - Call it 20 cents per mile, or 1/3rd of what your EV costs per mile to drive) plus whatever other expenses you had for driving it 120,000 miles. When you sold that ICE after 10 years, with 120,000 miles on it, you would likely get more money for it than a 10 year old EV - Trust me, I have a couple of $30K EV's which will be 10 years old next year and they are currently work less than 10% of what they cost new, regardless of how many miles they have on them. The ICE would easily beat that, double or triple

To 'make financial sense' out of owning an EV, you need to buy it, keep it for a very long time and even then you're better off not looking back and comparing the numbers, because they probably still don't add up

But, we're helping to save the planet and that's worth something!

Don

For that, you get to rent a car for 3 years and drive 36,000 miles.
I've been driving EV's for 9 years and I do agree that in most cases, they're more expensive to own and drive than your average ICE. Obviously doesn't bother me too much - The ID.4 is my fourth one

jimmack's lease payments add up to $18K, plus the $2.5K you got for your trade in comes to $20.5K. For that, you get to rent a car for 3 years and drive 36,000 miles. That's roughly 60 cents per mile for 'depreciation' not counting any other expenses incurred in driving it 36,000 miles. That's pretty expensive, in my book

If you had bought an ICE outright for $30K and kept it for 10 years and drove it 12,000 miles per year, your cost per mile for depreciation would be 25 cents per mile (even less if you count what you can sell the car for after 10 years - Call it 20 cents per mile, or 1/3rd of what your EV costs per mile to drive) plus whatever other expenses you had for driving it 120,000 miles. When you sold that ICE after 10 years, with 120,000 miles on it, you would likely get more money for it than a 10 year old EV - Trust me, I have a couple of $30K EV's which will be 10 years old next year and they are currently work less than 10% of what they cost new, regardless of how many miles they have on them. The ICE would easily beat that, double or triple

To 'make financial sense' out of owning an EV, you need to buy it, keep it for a very long time and even then you're better off not looking back and comparing the numbers, because they probably still don't add up

But, we're helping to save the planet and that's worth something!

Don
Don- A lease basically is a 39-month "rental". It works for me because I'm not keeping any car for 10 years or anywhere close to 120,000 miles. Beyond that, there are no $30,000 new or used cars that compare to the ID4. Even if there was, a $30k car with only $2500 down would be way over $500/mo. for 60 months. The Subaru I was looking at was basically new, originally stickered for about the same as the ID4, roughly $40k. I can give you all the numbers, but it was a great deal, but it would have been a purchase for 72 payments, and still cost $500/mo. But KNOWING GOING IN that this is the first year of the ID4, even if it is a great car, I'm going to want out of it in 3 or 4 years, to get the benefit of 4 more years of development, all the bugs worked out, the latest batteries, US production, etc. For that matter, as fast as EV technology is moving, why would you buy any EV and not "rent" it, especially when VW is giving you the Tax Credits UPFRONT? I love all the save the planet stuff, but from a pure capitalist standpoint, with the ID4, EVs costs are finally on par with the ICE equivalents, (OK, the Tax credits help...). To me, the remaining hurdle is total miles per charge and the distance between fast-charge stations. Gas stations are 15 to 1 Fast charge stations in the US, and most cars can get well over 300 miles before refueling. When we solve that, likely in the next 2 to 4 years, EVs won't need the tax credits to be on parity for cost, or range, and way ahead in almost every other aspect. Including saving the planet.
 
#47 ·
I understand everything you said and agree with much of it - My sole point was EV's are more expensive to drive than regular cars and of course, leases are the most expensive way to drive most cars. But . . . . if you want a new ride every 3 years and you don't care too much about the cost, leases give you a way to do that and if you don't have $7,500 of tax liability, then that gives you a way to drive an EV for less - But still not less than a similar ICE, IMO. As to keeping cars for 10 years, I guess I break all the rules. I only buy cars I really like, usually really love and I've kept several of them for much more than 10 years. I kept a Miata for 20 years, a Toyota Supra for 15 and our two Mitsubishi EV's will be 10 years old this coming May. Hopefully the ID.4 will be here for at least 10 or 12 - I think we like it that much

Don
 
#48 ·
I understand everything you said and agree with much of it - My sole point was EV's are more expensive to drive than regular cars and of course, leases are the most expensive way to drive most cars. But . . . . if you want a new ride every 3 years and you don't care too much about the cost, leases give you a way to do that and if you don't have $7,500 of tax liability, then that gives you a way to drive an EV for less - But still not less than a similar ICE, IMO. As to keeping cars for 10 years, I guess I break all the rules. I only buy cars I really like, usually really love and I've kept several of them for much more than 10 years. I kept a Miata for 20 years, a Toyota Supra for 15 and our two Mitsubishi EV's will be 10 years old this coming May. Hopefully the ID.4 will be here for at least 10 or 12 - I think we like it that much

Don
Out of curiosity, I'm wondering how you come to this conclusion. A Rav4 Limited hybrid with essentially the same features as the Pro S AWD (Limited Grade Advanced Technology Package, Limited Grade Weather Package and Pano Moonroof) has a price of $41,185. A Pro S AWD (in New York) is $38,675 after rebate and credit. A 2009 Rav4 limited goes for about $10K, and if you want to assume that's what a 2021 Rav4 will go for 12 years from now, and you save about $10K in fuel over 12 years with the Pro S AWD, the Pro S AWD would still be on par even if it was worth $0 down the road.

If you're saying owning an EV is more expensive than owning an ICE, I get that, but I'm struggling to understand how an AWD ID 4 is more expensive than a comparable ICE AWD SUV.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mzzyhmd
#49 ·
Total cost of ownership was the comparison...not MSRP to MSRP. Not that it matters, putting a RAV4 next to an ID.4 like you've done isn't a valid comparison anyway. If you were going to go that way, you'd have to keep it in the family by comparing a Tiguan to an ID.4 but that's still questionable. Far better is to compare an eGolf to a Golf, an F150 to an F150 Lightening, etc. If you really want to use Toyota you'd do an imperfect comparison between a RAV4 to a RAV4 PHEV to get a sense of the EV components.

Also, regarding the fuel "savings," if you're going to use "saving $10K in fuel" then you also need to include "paying $7K in electricity" for a valid comparison.

In any case, the conversation was centered around the often-used argument that EV owners are "saving" money in comparison to ICE vehicles due to decreased maintenance and fuel costs. Those statements almost always inflate the cost/hassle of ICE and over-estimate the savings of EVs...kind of like you've done here by comparing a RAV4 hybrid against the ID.4. The hybrid isn't an ICE, is more expensive the the ICE RAV4, is eligible for federal rebates you didn't deduct (or mention), and includes destination charges (that you didn't include in the ID.4).
 
#50 ·
I am not trying to fight, I am genuinely trying to understand before I purchase. Fair on the hybrid comparison. I just priced a non-hybrid Rav4 with the same extra package, and it stickers at $40,035, including destination. To your point, I missed destination on the ID 4, but that would still put the ID 4 as I have it priced as a bit cheaper than the Rav4, assuming it doesn't have tax incentives.

Regarding fuel, ~3 miles per kwh @ $0.15 for 120K miles is $6,000. The Rav4 is 27/35 MPG, so if we assume 30 mpg and I get gas at a unrealistically cheap $3/gallon over 120k miles, that's $12,000 in gas. The fuel savings is $6,000, and likely higher when factoring for real prices today and in the future. Then factoring in EA charging, and the potential savings I am investigating with TOU electric pricing, I could see my savings approach $10K.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mzzyhmd
#51 ·
Thanks for recognizing what I was pointing out and tightening up the comparisons. I'm in CA so I haven't seen .15 energy rates or $3/gallon gas for about a decade or longer! :) I still think comparing an ID.4 to a RAV4 is problematic; I think a stronger case for someone looking to get into a VW SUV would be shopping between an EV ID.4 or an ICE Tiguan, which top out around $32K unless one opts for the $39K appearance package. I'm not fully knowledgeable of the Tiguan as it's a sub-par comparison to my already owned Touareg so I was never interested in them. If someone is cost-conscious while shopping around the Tiguans should have leasing deals for roughly half of what I was able to swing for my (now sold) FE lease terms.

I didn't realize you were in shopping mode--I thought you already had your ID.4. Not that it changes the conversation other than to add I don't think Don was trying to sway you away from an EV purchase and I know I'm not. In any case, buying a new car to save money is generally a losing proposition regardless of the technology underpinning it :)
 
#55 ·
Thanks for recognizing what I was pointing out and tightening up the comparisons. I'm in CA so I haven't seen .15 energy rates or $3/gallon gas for about a decade or longer! :) I still think comparing an ID.4 to a RAV4 is problematic; I think a stronger case for someone looking to get into a VW SUV would be shopping between an EV ID.4 or an ICE Tiguan, which top out around $32K unless one opts for the $39K appearance package. I'm not fully knowledgeable of the Tiguan as it's a sub-par comparison to my already owned Touareg so I was never interested in them. If someone is cost-conscious while shopping around the Tiguans should have leasing deals for roughly half of what I was able to swing for my (now sold) FE lease terms.I didn't realize you were in shopping mode--I thought you already had your ID.4. Not that it changes the conversation other than to add I don't think Don was trying to sway you away from an EV purchase and I know I'm not. In any case, buying a new car to save money is generally a losing proposition regardless of the technology underpinning it :)
I didn't realize you were in shopping mode--I thought you already had your ID.4.
Well as you can see in my sig I’m basically there! I’m gonna buy it but I just saw this thread and it intrigued me. I appreciate the opinions and agree in concept that cars in general cost money (I’m a guy with an 18-year old daily driver). But to your and the other responses after, I get the depreciation, but who knows what the world will look like 12 years from now. Will ICEs hold value like those sold 12 years ago did?

I think Don said it best upthread: buy it, enjoy it, don’t look back at the numbers a long time from now. That’s how I intend to play it anyway. I guess my point is if I assume whatever I buy is worth $0 at the end, the loan plus fuel is, in the interim, on par.

Also regarding CA vs NY, I feel bad for you guys. If I’m reading this TOU info right from my utility, I can get ~$0.07 for supply and delivery overnight, about half my current flat rate.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mzzyhmd
#52 ·
EVs are great. They are constantly changing... a 2010 Nissan Leaf had a 24 kWh li-ion battery that took 23 hours to charge at 1.9 kW. That car is only 11 years old.

In a few months, EV6 and few others will be using 800V and charge 280+ miles in under 20mins at 239 kW.

My opinions:

1) EV have a lifetime of 6-10 years not 12+ of ICE.
2) EVs devalue more than ICE cars because of tax credits and will continue to do so. New cars are discounted leaving old cars less valuable.
3) New EVs will continue to drastically improve. We will have 800V and 1600V batteries in a few years IMO and we will charge in 5-15minutes and we will have 300 miles of range with smaller batteries and if we use solid state batteries they won't explode like lithium-electrolyte ones.

As total cost of ownership / value proposition... buy a RAV4 or Camry and drive it 200K for 14+ years. You buy an EV because you like them or are environmentally conscious.
 
#53 ·
The big determining factor in the total cost of ownership between EV's and similar sized and priced ICE's isn't the cost of energy to move them down the road, it's depreciation. Hopefully the ID.4 will prove to be the exception to what we've seen recently, but used EV's tend to depreciate like a rock - Few people value a highly computerized vehicle for very much once the factory warranty is gone, so they don't bring good prices on the used market. In the lease example earlier, a $40K+ car leased for 39 months cost more than $20K in payments plus the $7,500 tax credit and that means the leasing company has been paid about $28K for a 40 month old car. They're hoping a 4 year old car with only 36,000 miles on it will then sell for $15K or more so they can make a buck or two, but that's no guarantee. A CRV or a Rav4 doesn't depreciate like that

Don
 
#54 ·
it might not have depreciated like that in the past, but in the upcoming 15 years? The shift to cleaner cars is really to take hold now, and governments will be forced to push people to cleaner alternatives. If they’ll tax the heck out of fuel and ice ownership, ICEs will depreciate in value fast!
 
#56 ·
The catch-22 with that scenario (and to be clear, I don't agree with the premise) is that the more governments incentive uptake of new tech they leave older new tech in a deadspace. The reason EVs depreciate so heavily is because it's difficult to justify spending $20-25K on a used EV with a four year loan product vs. a $35-40K new EV minus new car rebates/tax incentives with an eight year loan product...with a 0-2% interest rate.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top