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Software: Anyone have timeline or a link to a post about the timeline for 3.0/3.1 release in the USA?

16717 Views 193 Replies 45 Participants Last post by  NeverhadanEVbefore
The slow software genuinely makes the car experience bad. At least for me, I do not understand how this was allowed to go out in this state.

I was fine with it for a while because it was a new car, new driving experience. Everything about the car is amazing EXCEPT the software and no one pedal driving(which i can live without). Now that i have been driving it for almost 2k miles, driving has become a normal experience and the frustration of the software being slow grows, i want to get in my car and turn on the AC. Not sit there and wait for the software to take 1-2 mins to wake up and then move at 2 fps to the menu. I understand it goes into a deep sleep, i think that is okay but my laptop can start up and be at the desktop in 12 seconds on average, so i feel like it isn't unreasonable to ask a $45k-$50k car to do the same.

Another thing that makes the experience worse is getting into another person car and their software is super fast and snappy. It makes my car feel like it wasn't worth the value, almost feel like i would have bought the car for 25k and the 25k discount was to let me write the software, atleast if my software breaks i can only blame myself the 1 developer not a 250 billion(2021 EUR revenue) dollar company.

If the software isn't out or it comes out and doesn't solve basic issues like the performance of the software in the next year, i will be selling it as other car companies are coming out with similar cars with better software, more features, and a similar price tag. Which would be disappointing because i was excited for VW. This is my first VW car and everything about it was so exciting to support a company planning on swapping the majority of their cars to EVs. I WANT to support it, but imo it isn't worth it if basic software is a problem for the company. I don't need OTA updates, i could even go into a service center if it meant fixing it but even the service centers were like /shrug.
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you chose instead for the most black and white statement
To be fair, you chose to read it in the most black and white interpretation possible.

(like me) modified every so the sentence, in native English anyway, did not claim every ID.4 owner shared the same frustrations...only those that were like VW Dave; ie, those who are frustrated about specific features missing and/or broken that have been promised to be addressed for well over a year now.

That said, if you aren't using features like scheduled charging, which are at least some of the bulk of the source of frustration for such owners, then how can you realistically respond in a fair way to that criticism? If my gas flap was stuck closed and I couldn't drive my car, it wouldn't be a legitimate rebuttal of yours to state that you haven't needed to fuel up in six months because you work from home so there's no problem from your perspective. Regardless of whether you want that feature to work, it's a critical function for battery management. I've explained elsewhere why external EVSEs that have scheduling features don't suffice because the charge curve relies on scheduled charging.

Every customer who does not have a working scheduled charging feature is experiencing permanent battery degradation at every charge. Now, you may not notice the degradation depending on your driving habits but that's not relevant to whether it's happening--only to whether you care that it's happening.

I’m not sure what people are comparing the ID.4 software to, so it’s hard to know what others expect.
At this point, US ID4 owners can compare it to non-US ID4 owners. From my perspective, customers have been very clear on what they expect given their base expectation is clear and accurate communication from VW, which has been their failing point in regards to US customers for decades so that's unlikely to get better despite earlier proclamations to the contrary.
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As I’ve said multiple times in this thread and elsewhere, I’m talking about my experience with and my usage of the software and hardware in my car. I’m not trying to universalize my experience or deny that others might have both real and perceived issues. My suggestion is that anyone who is experiencing problems might want to consider doing something similar and not trying to universalize their negative experiences by making blanket statements about the experiences and perceptions of all other owners. There are other owners who are satisfied with the car as-is, as @Huey52 points out.

For someone who depends on scheduled charging, I understand the frustration of the broken feature -- and I’d be frustrated too if I used that feature. It’s simply shameful that this is not fixed yet and that VW hasn’t communicated about when a fix is coming. The communication from VW about this and other issues has been just awful. But to me the poor communications issue is a separate issue from use of the actual software in my day-to-day use of the car.

I’m sorry that you’re having a bad experience. Good luck.
Everyone needs scheduled charging to function properly. It's not a choice--not a convenience feature--it's a critical element of battery maintenance. Anyone arguing that they don't need to use it so it's not a problem doesn't understand the technology underpinning what it's doing.

That said, my response wasn't to debate the merits of scheduled charging. It was to point out that you chose to read that sentence in a particular way and argue against it. You doubled down here for some reason. That member was not universalizing his experience. That sentence, correctly read in native English, does not convey what you read from it. I explained that already and shouldn't have to explain myself again so I'll leave it at that.

As for my troubles, I sold my ID4 a few months after owning it. I've already done this rodeo with VW multiple times over the past couple decades. As I mentioned elsewhere, I sold the last of my VWs last month and that is the end of my relationship with VAG for the rest of my life other than my now falling stock positions. I guess if we're offering suggestions to one another my suggestion to you would be to listen to the experiences of long-time VW owners about our perception of what and why the company does what it does.
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I'm sorry but why do I need scheduled charging? I don't have an off peak rate provided by my utility.
I've explained this in the past but that was a long time ago. I'll explain it here again. While people are focused on scheduled charging to limit charge times within certain pricing tiers, that's not why it's important to have. It's critical to proper battery management. Right now you charge your vehicle and it's a dumb charge--regardless of how "smart" and EVSE claims to be...they are all "dumb." The work of charging the battery happens within the EV--not the EVSE. It's just a fancy extension cord. A timer on the EVSE is a blunt force delivery of electricity to the battery pack.

A correctly working battery management system charges the system at the slowest, most effective and efficient methodology possible. In order to maintain proper battery conditioning, the vehicle needs to know when and how to set the charging curve. It can't do that without scheduled charging. Does that give you enough information or do I need to explain further? I'd rather dig up my old posts on the subject than re-type it all so if you'd like a deeper explanation I'll run a search on my posts and copy the info here.
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It was a genuine offer from me--not snark. I'll search my post history and post back here.
[EDIT: here's one of my lengthier posts on the subject: Scheduled Charging YouTube;
also, since the current crop of owners have apparently opted to simply not use the feature, it's important to note that the issue I'm describing is a long-term concern. In the immediate, the issue was less about stopping the charge and more about starting one. Those of us who tried to use scheduled charging had to deal with the vehicle ignoring our charge thresholds (is anyone limiting their charge to 80%? Couldn't do that with scheduled charging...), charging at only a few amps, and sometimes it wouldn't charge at all rendering some people incapable of driving their ID4 to work the next morning.]

If you recall, I was initially excited by VW's promises that quickly devolved into skepticism by the 2nd month of ownership after I experienced similar shenanigans with the dealership in regards to repairing the ID4 as I've experienced with them in the past. After owners were promised a software update in summer (at the time, it was last summer) I started to mention that this was an old pattern of VAGs. I do think I posted to the board when I sold my ID4 that I would be permanently leaving the VAG family after I sold my remaining Touareg and ID4 after I figured out what we'd be getting into. At the time, I was feeling rather negative toward VW and asked for an account closure. You, and other mods, suggested I stay around so I did and check in from time to time.

In any case, the two decades of exclusive ownership is only in regards to my adult family life (wife, kids, etc.). Of course, I'm not counting growing up working on air cooled dubs with my friends, dad, and he with his dad growing up, as well. So a rather long history indeed! I'm not alone in saying the cars are awesome but the company sucks. Historically we've remedied this by servicing and repairing them ourselves. In this case, I was relatively certain I couldn't do that long-term so the vehicle had to go.
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I don’t think there’s any evidence that charging at home speeds (L1 or L2) leads to any detectable amount of battery degradation, no matter what the BMS is doing.
Rechargeable batteries are not new technology nor are they esoteric. Battery health absolutely depends on a correctly functioning charge curve whether you choose to agree, believe, or understand it.

I wonder if your caveat was intentional or if you realize that you fundamentally don't care whether your vehicle is functioning correctly...
charging at L1 and L2 speeds does not lead to any appreciable amount of battery degradation.
You don't have the tools to look for it and apparently don't care even if it does happen so long as the included battery buffer doesn't alert you to the degradation. Those of us with the proper tools, however, can measure the degradation. Regardless, whether you find it "appreciable" or not is immaterial to the problem that exists.

Furthermore, since you and the person you're agreeing with don't use the feature, you don't know what is broken. That's one of the reasons I mentioned earlier your rebuttals aren't valid. If you tried to rely on the feature you would find it complicates much more essential functions of the vehicle than simply the time of day that the vehicle charges. It controls the charge thresholds, the temperature of the battery pack, and whether someone can even charge and make it to work or wherever they needed to be the next morning. If you still want to dig your heels in and defend a broken feature that you don't bother using, at least read the early experiences of those of us who didn't know it was broken and what was going wrong with our cars until we found out the feature wasn't working. It's not like VW told us the feature wasn't working and they'd come up with an update; many of us woke up in the morning to vehicles that had either overcharged, undercharged, or didn't charge at all. It took a while to diagnose what the heck was going on while dealership and VW stonewalled us. It's all historical at this point...freely available to those who are interested in what the actual concerns are rather than telling owners to suck it up.
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I don’t need it - OR - I do it on my own is a better way to say that. I don’t need the car to do it.
If you think you don't need it, you don't understand what it needs to do OR you don't care about your battery's and/or your/your family's health. A properly working charge curve is critical to battery safety in addition to its long-term health. It is not possible to manually adjust the curve. The closest someone came to this was tricking the system into a departure time that wasn't when they were going to leave and even that was wonky but it was close enough for that member.

Furthermore, the fact that VW hasn't addressed this in over a year while promising a solution each summer since it was discovered points to a lack of dedication to addressing the US market, which was something they were vocal about when they were promoting the ID4.

If they aren't delivering on their own stated claims, that should give pause to anyone regarding long-term support of the vehicle in the future. This is the type of behavior VW has demonstrated to US customers over the past decades so it's an indication their company hasn't changed internally despite their claims otherwise.

The problem of "scheduled charging" goes far beyond and much deeper than simply charging between 10pm and 6am or whenever.
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Are you saying that VW's current charge curve without scheduled charging is unsafe?
Yes, when the BMS can't regulate the charge pack's internal temperature or charge state correctly the cells will eventually become destabilized. Owners are currently trying to regulate these things manually but they can't control the charge curve in any way other than on or off, which is insufficient to regulate them in this kind of battery.

As I said earlier, EVs are not using esoteric technology. You're aware of these issues in all kinds of other products. Whether it's a flashlight cell, a phone battery, or a BEV that combusts into flames in the driveway (all historical examples), you've almost certainly seen media reports of the catastrophic results from a malfunctioning BMS.
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do you have data that shows that VW's charge curve/bms is unstable? My understanding is that the bms is actually very good at keeping the temps well within the safe range.
There's an entire thread dedicated to figuring out what was going wrong with the charging logic. I've already linked to it in this discussion if you'd like to read through it.

I'll point out the obvious so we don't accidentally talk past one another: the BMS being very good at keeping temps within the safe range would necessarily require it to be functioning properly. If it's malfunctioning, however, that won't assumption won't hold true. Currently the charging logic is faulty. Eventually the cells will degrade to a point where these issues will become more apparent. For some people that will result in them not having a proper charge when they want to use their vehicle. For others it will result in much more serious and catastrophic consequences.
Has a BEV ever combusted in a driveway due to poor BMS
Once again, there is nothing esoteric about the batteries inside of a BEV.

The question is not whether BEVs have combusted due to faulty BMS (although the answer to your question is yes), but whether batteries have done so...and the answer, of course, is yes and I already provided several examples.
Where is the example of a BEV combusting in a driveway that was not caused by a physical battery defect? Just saying it happened in a post does not make it true
Welp, guess you win bud. Improperly charged batteries pose no safety concerns to consumers because I won't bother digging up any articles about electric vehicles exploding in people's driveways. /shrug

Point me at any prior thread and I'm happy to read it there.
You might find it helpful to read post #116, #118, and #120 here:
then you can skip to the end of the discussion to get to the more technical details of the conversation.

I'll answer the questions in your post after you've sifted through some of those data presented. The short version of my response would be that, while I don't know whether the BMS cannot function properly, it certainly isn't currently functioning properly. None of us know the extent of the problem but given that VW can't get a handle on it indicates it's either too deeply intertwined that they don't have a simple solution or they don't care enough about our market to develop one--possibly both are true. Furthermore, the BMS controls the pack relative to your individual usage patterns. If you have an undercharge, overcharge, or failed to charge condition the BMS has failed in its job. The scheduled charging feature surfaced these three conditions but we don't know if it's only limited to scheduled charges. In reality, we only know the charging logic is faulty. That's enough of a problem in and of itself but there's also no reason to believe the BMS is functioning correctly. That's just an assumption because people aren't experiencing problems. There's a sizable buffer in the battery that the end-user never has access too so your pack could be degrading much more than your UI is indicating.

As the batteries age they will surface weak cells. When that happens, and what the consequences will be when it does, is anyone's guess but it's not a mystery that it will eventually happen. Even just old batteries eventually experience this with a properly functioning BMS.
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But getting back to specifically using scheduled charging (if it worked) or not wouldn't seem to be a battery health issue. There are plenty of times when we all charge that is outside of any desired scheduling, in fact for many prominently so.
Scheduling a charge in and of itself is not a safety concern. That said, charging outside of your individual usage patterns will degrade the battery long-term. You already know this when it comes to not leaving it sitting around with less than 20% charge for very long or over 80% charge for too long. You are already familiar with those broad brush strokes. It will take more years and people in different environments to detect the longer term damage of either charging it too full in the middle of the night and leaving it that way for a few hours, leaving it uncharged for a few hours, or not being able to thermally manage it all day/night long in extreme cold or heat. It'll still degrade for you, just not as fast as those of us who live in the deserts and snowy regions.

The problem here is that scheduled charging doesn't work...and by that we mean it's faulty and overcharges, undercharges, and fails to charge. This isn't just about not being able to charge between 10pm and 6am or whenever. Read those specific posts to refresh your memory about all of the different ways in which this has reared its ugly head (I list four specific failures in post #120, the other two posts I mentioned were two different users explaining episodes that alarmed them).

When you have a faulty charging logic you have a safety issue. The scheduled charging presents two problems: it's both a broken feature that inconveniences users and degrades their cells over time and it's also clear evidence of faulty charging logic. How faulty? Well, we don't know and VW, if they know, isn't saying. If they do know what the problem is, it's strange that they haven't sent out a fix yet despite telling us for over a year that a fix was a matter of months away. Remember those updates that were going to come every...what was it...three months? How many have you received?

Do you remember the Kona recalls last year due to claimed faulty batteries? Well that didn't explain why this specific Kona burned up in Norway: Hyundai Kona Electric That Caught Fire In Norway Was Not Included In Recall

Hyundai never published their findings but this is what LG Chem had to say:
"LG Energy Solution said that the folded anode tab had nothing to do with the fires and claimed that there was a “misapplication of the BMS charging map.” Although the supplier did not blame that issue for the fires, it said Hyundai made an “incorrect application of fast charging logic, proposed by LG Energy Solution, to the BMS.” Depending on what Hyundai discovers in the recent Norwegian blaze, that hypothesis could come back to the table."
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All it does is check with the EVSE to determine the max charge rate available to the car when plugged in, calculate a time estimate to complete a full charge at that rate, and then work backwards from the set departure time to begin its charge at some appropriate time when it expects to be completed by the time you set. It has no bearing on the rate of charge to the battery - that is determined by the BMS whether or not scheduled charging is enabled. So, regardless of when the car charges, the BMS will always meter the charge rate for optimum mix of battery health and charge time
This explanation of yours if factually incorrect.

In fact, you contradict yourself. You claim that scheduled charging has nothing to do with the BMS yet inadvertently mention (correctly) "the BMS will always meter the charge rate for optimum mix of battery health and charge time" (emphasis mine). The BMS requires knowing the proper charge time (and obviously adhering to it, which is the entire problem here) in order to correctly meter the charge rate.
Sorry, but you're misunderstanding what I wrote
I understand what you wrote perfectly well. Please refrain from any further condescension when addressing me or my points.

As you know, and clearly stated in the portion I quoted, the BMS requires the departure time to correctly apply the charge curve.
My takeaway is that there is a 50% chance it was the folded tabs, and a 50% chance it was a poor BMS implementation.
You're welcome to your personal opinion on the subject. Before you solidify your position on that, however, I encourage you to read the article I cited since the vehicle in question was not part of the recall.
Anyway, I now understand the root of your confusion! The BMS won't alter its charge curve by departure time

Using my example above, if the BMS determines it will take four hours to charge to the set charging level, it won't then charge at half power if you plug in at midnight; it will just wait until 4am and tell the BMS to start charging.
Again, I'm not confused. You created a straw-man--I wrote the BMS can't "correctly apply the charge curve" if it doesn't know the departure time (or ignores it) not that it alters it during a charge session by charge time.

If you want to continue having a good-faith conversation then read through the references I've provided multiple times in this discussion. Case in point: "if the BMS determines it will take four hours to charge to the set charging level, it won't then charge at half power if you plug in at midnight; it will just wait until 4am and tell the BMS to start charging."

The ID4 doesn't do this, which is the problem we've been discussing over the past year. Now, we can engage in a pedantic discussion over where that deficiency lies, whether it's appropriate to call it a faulty BMS or faulty charge logic (what I've been saying) that makes it so the BMS can't function properly...but I find it curious that you're digging your heels in over this minutiae that creates no functional difference for an end-user while not responding at all to this factually incorrect and downright dangerous claim that: "If a poor BMS created risk for battery fires," As an engineer, I'd think you'd want to correct that.
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My brain hurts. Good thing I [non-scheduled] charged to 80% last night and don't typically let it get much below 50%. ;)
If you typically use 30% day-to-day, you'll get better longevity from your pack if you keep it between 35-65%.
Unless I'm mistaken, were you one of the members who intends to keep this vehicle forever or one of your lasts?

EDIT: if the mods' heads are hurting I'll exit the thread. Got no problems with that...I had only hung around cuz you all had suggested that I had valuable information to share with the members here. I'm a professor and enjoy teaching but it's not fun to be arguing with people who don't want to learn something.
btw(2): I consider myself a lifelong learner so do appreciate your effort. But sometimes life practicalities just get in the way of perfect maintenance, try as we might.
That was most certainly not directed at you or Spin.

It was appended to my post because that was intended to be my last in the conversation; it was not a response to your posts.
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I made it to the end 💪.
Did you ever resolve the issue with your ID.4 charging past 80% despite your settings?

d287 claims to have never seen that problem even though he was active in this thread where you and other members described this exact issue.

The only time the failure of scheduled charging to work properly could have an adverse affect on your battery longevity are if it charges the car beyond the set charge point (I've seen no evidence of that happening - all complaints I've seen are that it just starts and then stops
(emphasis added)

Perhaps people think I'm spreading FUD, but one thing I have never done in this forum is lie.

To casual observers, take note of how concerns raised on this forum are responded to by a handful of the same people: downplay the concern, misconstrue the position of whomever is raising the concern, lie about facts, and when all else fails ridicule anyone with an opposing view.

The ramifications of that behavior have accumulated into a number of members here just plain giving up on their cars and selling them, another number of members who don't care about the issues, and these dynamics culminating into an echo chamber of members driving people from the conversations when these issues are brought up.
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So, you’re going to call me a liar?
You claimed that you've never seen any evidence of the charging limit being ignored even though you participated in a thread that described that exact issue. I also linked you to a thread where no less than three separate reports of members not being able set a proper charge limit as it pertained to scheduled charging. Maybe you read it, maybe you didn't--but you asked me for the link and I provided it.

I'm quoting your various posts across the forum. Members can assess for themselves the veracity of your posts.

Accusing me of making the conversation personal is pretty rich after I sat here and endured your condescension, multiple members posting flat out false claims, and then added in a sprinkling of snide remarks for good measure. As far the technological facts are concerned, you and I reached an impasse after you refused to correct someone claiming that a faulty BMS does not create a risk for battery fires, you straw-manned my points, and refused to acknowledge a difference between best practices of when to start/stop charging a vehicle.

Ignoring your pedantry for the sake of whatever is left of this conversation, being unable to set an upper charge threshold is yet another example of the faulty charging logic I've been describing in this thread.

That said, @JLo were you able to resolve your issue with setting an upper charge threshold?

PS: You are the only one I see on this thread spread FUD - trying to scare people that somehow not having scheduled charging would damage their battery
Interesting edit...why post some facts when you can create another straw-man, right?
What I stated was that faulty charge logic carries inherent risks in the context of rechargeable batteries. The scheduled charging is one example of that faulty charge logic. Being unable to set an upper charge threshold is another example of that underlying, core issue. I also stated that ignoring all of these software features will eventually lead to cell damage.

I am most certainly not trying to "scare" anyone...most of the people in this thread are laughing and ridiculing those factual observations. Initially, I didn't even want to have this discussion; I explicitly stated in my first post that I was responding to someone else chastising someone for making an accurate post that these issues impact everyone regardless of whether those members care about the issues or not.

What I didn't say, but is also true, is that everyone should care regardless because these specific issues are harming ID4 adoption and that impacts everyone alike. When VW doesn't get their sales numbers they'll cut resources to software development and eventually pull their EVs from the US market like they've done with the past two they offered.
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