Okay, I'm definitely not understanding this, but I would like to. It seems you are saying that the BMS in my car cannot function properly unless it's being activated through the in-car schedule? I thought the Battery Management System controls/modifies the current flow to optimize the charge—including cell balancing—under the existing conditions. I'm not pushing back on you at all. I don't understand why built-in, in-car scheduling is going to have any relationship with the BMS once a charge is begun, regardless of the time of day or week. Or is the issue more about consistent repeatable charging at similar/identical SOC levels (ex. every time the car hits 20% SOC)? I found one thread where you mentioned this issue previously but it did not contain any detailed explanation of this. Point me at any prior thread and I'm happy to read it there.
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Software: Anyone have timeline or a link to a post about the timeline for 3.0/3.1 release in the USA?
The slow software genuinely makes the car experience bad. At least for me, I do not understand how this was allowed to go out in this state.
I was fine with it for a while because it was a new car, new driving experience. Everything about the car is amazing EXCEPT the software and no one pedal driving(which i can live without). Now that i have been driving it for almost 2k miles, driving has become a normal experience and the frustration of the software being slow grows, i want to get in my car and turn on the AC. Not sit there and wait for the software to take 1-2 mins to wake up and then move at 2 fps to the menu. I understand it goes into a deep sleep, i think that is okay but my laptop can start up and be at the desktop in 12 seconds on average, so i feel like it isn't unreasonable to ask a $45k-$50k car to do the same.
Another thing that makes the experience worse is getting into another person car and their software is super fast and snappy. It makes my car feel like it wasn't worth the value, almost feel like i would have bought the car for 25k and the 25k discount was to let me write the software, atleast if my software breaks i can only blame myself the 1 developer not a 250 billion(2021 EUR revenue) dollar company.
If the software isn't out or it comes out and doesn't solve basic issues like the performance of the software in the next year, i will be selling it as other car companies are coming out with similar cars with better software, more features, and a similar price tag. Which would be disappointing because i was excited for VW. This is my first VW car and everything about it was so exciting to support a company planning on swapping the majority of their cars to EVs. I WANT to support it, but imo it isn't worth it if basic software is a problem for the company. I don't need OTA updates, i could even go into a service center if it meant fixing it but even the service centers were like /shrug.
I was fine with it for a while because it was a new car, new driving experience. Everything about the car is amazing EXCEPT the software and no one pedal driving(which i can live without). Now that i have been driving it for almost 2k miles, driving has become a normal experience and the frustration of the software being slow grows, i want to get in my car and turn on the AC. Not sit there and wait for the software to take 1-2 mins to wake up and then move at 2 fps to the menu. I understand it goes into a deep sleep, i think that is okay but my laptop can start up and be at the desktop in 12 seconds on average, so i feel like it isn't unreasonable to ask a $45k-$50k car to do the same.
Another thing that makes the experience worse is getting into another person car and their software is super fast and snappy. It makes my car feel like it wasn't worth the value, almost feel like i would have bought the car for 25k and the 25k discount was to let me write the software, atleast if my software breaks i can only blame myself the 1 developer not a 250 billion(2021 EUR revenue) dollar company.
If the software isn't out or it comes out and doesn't solve basic issues like the performance of the software in the next year, i will be selling it as other car companies are coming out with similar cars with better software, more features, and a similar price tag. Which would be disappointing because i was excited for VW. This is my first VW car and everything about it was so exciting to support a company planning on swapping the majority of their cars to EVs. I WANT to support it, but imo it isn't worth it if basic software is a problem for the company. I don't need OTA updates, i could even go into a service center if it meant fixing it but even the service centers were like /shrug.
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There's an entire thread dedicated to figuring out what was going wrong with the charging logic. I've already linked to it in this discussion if you'd like to read through it.do you have data that shows that VW's charge curve/bms is unstable? My understanding is that the bms is actually very good at keeping the temps well within the safe range.
I'll point out the obvious so we don't accidentally talk past one another: the BMS being very good at keeping temps within the safe range would necessarily require it to be functioning properly. If it's malfunctioning, however, that won't assumption won't hold true. Currently the charging logic is faulty. Eventually the cells will degrade to a point where these issues will become more apparent. For some people that will result in them not having a proper charge when they want to use their vehicle. For others it will result in much more serious and catastrophic consequences.
Once again, there is nothing esoteric about the batteries inside of a BEV.Has a BEV ever combusted in a driveway due to poor BMS
The question is not whether BEVs have combusted due to faulty BMS (although the answer to your question is yes), but whether batteries have done so...and the answer, of course, is yes and I already provided several examples.
Sorry. This thread is moving so fast I can't keep up. I'll look for your information in the prior posts.
Where is the example of a BEV combusting in a driveway that was not caused by a physical battery defect? Just saying it happened in a post does not make it trueOnce again, there is nothing esoteric about the batteries inside of a BEV.
The question is not whether BEVs have combusted due to faulty BMS (although the answer to your question is yes), but whether batteries have done so...and the answer, of course, is yes and I already provided several examples.
Welp, guess you win bud. Improperly charged batteries pose no safety concerns to consumers because I won't bother digging up any articles about electric vehicles exploding in people's driveways. /shrugWhere is the example of a BEV combusting in a driveway that was not caused by a physical battery defect? Just saying it happened in a post does not make it true
You might find it helpful to read post #116, #118, and #120 here:Point me at any prior thread and I'm happy to read it there.
ID.4 charging issues (without specific faults) &...
Here's a new twist to the charging issues. I decided to try out scheduled charging and, like most of you, I got less than optimal results (I think it was 67%). So, I deleted the scheduling and decided to wait for the fix. But now the ID.4 always charges to 100%, even though I've set it to...
www.vwidtalk.com
I'll answer the questions in your post after you've sifted through some of those data presented. The short version of my response would be that, while I don't know whether the BMS cannot function properly, it certainly isn't currently functioning properly. None of us know the extent of the problem but given that VW can't get a handle on it indicates it's either too deeply intertwined that they don't have a simple solution or they don't care enough about our market to develop one--possibly both are true. Furthermore, the BMS controls the pack relative to your individual usage patterns. If you have an undercharge, overcharge, or failed to charge condition the BMS has failed in its job. The scheduled charging feature surfaced these three conditions but we don't know if it's only limited to scheduled charges. In reality, we only know the charging logic is faulty. That's enough of a problem in and of itself but there's also no reason to believe the BMS is functioning correctly. That's just an assumption because people aren't experiencing problems. There's a sizable buffer in the battery that the end-user never has access too so your pack could be degrading much more than your UI is indicating.
As the batteries age they will surface weak cells. When that happens, and what the consequences will be when it does, is anyone's guess but it's not a mystery that it will eventually happen. Even just old batteries eventually experience this with a properly functioning BMS.
I'm struggling as well. I think you may be saying that everything v2.1 software related to charging this vehicle, whether it be specifically scheduled charging or not, is flawed. That may very well be the case and what we refer to as simply "scheduled charging" may be more of a systemic issue and why it has taken/is still taking VW so long to rectify? I need to read more ...
But getting back to specifically using scheduled charging (if it worked) or not wouldn't seem to be a battery health issue. There are plenty of times when we all charge that is outside of any desired scheduling, in fact for many prominently so.
But getting back to specifically using scheduled charging (if it worked) or not wouldn't seem to be a battery health issue. There are plenty of times when we all charge that is outside of any desired scheduling, in fact for many prominently so.
Okay, I'm definitely not understanding this, but I would like to. It seems you are saying that the BMS in my car cannot function properly unless it's being activated through the in-car schedule? I thought the Battery Management System controls/modifies the current flow to optimize the charge—including cell balancing—under the existing conditions. I'm not pushing back on you at all. I don't understand why built-in, in-car scheduling is going to have any relationship with the BMS once a charge is begun, regardless of the time of day or week. Or is the issue more about consistent repeatable charging at similar/identical SOC levels (ex. every time the car hits 20% SOC)? I found one thread where you mentioned this issue previously but it did not contain any detailed explanation of this. Point me at any prior thread and I'm happy to read it there.
There's an entire thread dedicated to figuring out what was going wrong with the charging logic. I've already linked to it in this discussion if you'd like to read through it.
I'll point out the obvious so we don't accidentally talk past one another: the BMS being very good at keeping temps within the safe range would necessarily require it to be functioning properly. If it's malfunctioning, however, that won't assumption won't hold true. Currently the charging logic is faulty. Eventually the cells will degrade to a point where these issues will become more apparent. For some people that will result in them not having a proper charge when they want to use their vehicle. For others it will result in much more serious and catastrophic consequences.
Scheduling a charge in and of itself is not a safety concern. That said, charging outside of your individual usage patterns will degrade the battery long-term. You already know this when it comes to not leaving it sitting around with less than 20% charge for very long or over 80% charge for too long. You are already familiar with those broad brush strokes. It will take more years and people in different environments to detect the longer term damage of either charging it too full in the middle of the night and leaving it that way for a few hours, leaving it uncharged for a few hours, or not being able to thermally manage it all day/night long in extreme cold or heat. It'll still degrade for you, just not as fast as those of us who live in the deserts and snowy regions.But getting back to specifically using scheduled charging (if it worked) or not wouldn't seem to be a battery health issue. There are plenty of times when we all charge that is outside of any desired scheduling, in fact for many prominently so.
The problem here is that scheduled charging doesn't work...and by that we mean it's faulty and overcharges, undercharges, and fails to charge. This isn't just about not being able to charge between 10pm and 6am or whenever. Read those specific posts to refresh your memory about all of the different ways in which this has reared its ugly head (I list four specific failures in post #120, the other two posts I mentioned were two different users explaining episodes that alarmed them).
When you have a faulty charging logic you have a safety issue. The scheduled charging presents two problems: it's both a broken feature that inconveniences users and degrades their cells over time and it's also clear evidence of faulty charging logic. How faulty? Well, we don't know and VW, if they know, isn't saying. If they do know what the problem is, it's strange that they haven't sent out a fix yet despite telling us for over a year that a fix was a matter of months away. Remember those updates that were going to come every...what was it...three months? How many have you received?
Do you remember the Kona recalls last year due to claimed faulty batteries? Well that didn't explain why this specific Kona burned up in Norway: Hyundai Kona Electric That Caught Fire In Norway Was Not Included In Recall
Hyundai never published their findings but this is what LG Chem had to say:
"LG Energy Solution said that the folded anode tab had nothing to do with the fires and claimed that there was a “misapplication of the BMS charging map.” Although the supplier did not blame that issue for the fires, it said Hyundai made an “incorrect application of fast charging logic, proposed by LG Energy Solution, to the BMS.” Depending on what Hyundai discovers in the recent Norwegian blaze, that hypothesis could come back to the table."
Correct - scheduled charging has nothing to do with battery health or longevity. All it does is check with the EVSE to determine the max charge rate available to the car when plugged in, calculate a time estimate to complete a full charge at that rate, and then work backwards from the set departure time to begin its charge at some appropriate time when it expects to be completed by the time you set. It has no bearing on the rate of charge to the battery - that is determined by the BMS whether or not scheduled charging is enabled. So, regardless of when the car charges, the BMS will always meter the charge rate for optimum mix of battery health and charge time - you have no control over that by delaying a charging session. The only control you have over L2 charge rate is to enable "reduced AC charge rate" setting in the UI which will limit charge rate to 8 amps. Of course, the degradation effect on a LiIon battery caused by charging it is related to charge rate happens at a cell level, and the difference between charging at 8amps at 240volts (1.9kW) and 48amps at 240volts (11.5kW) won't affect the aging of your battery - not a battery designed to charge at 125 to 135kW on a L3 charge. (That will shorten the life of your battery, but not enormously, based on reports from other manufacturers like Tesla who've had NMC chemistry batteries on the road for longer.)But getting back to specifically using scheduled charging (if it worked) or not wouldn't seem to be a battery health issue. There are plenty of times when we all charge that is outside of any desired scheduling, in fact for many prominently so.
The only time the failure of scheduled charging to work properly could have an adverse affect on your battery longevity are if it charges the car beyond the set charge point (I've seen no evidence of that happening - all complaints I've seen are that it just starts and then stops, leaving the driver with insufficient charge at the time set for departure). Or, if you need to leave on a trip and want 100% charge and don't have time to plug it in at exactly the right number of hours before your departure, so you let the car sit at 100% after an overnight charge before you leave. Either way, the damage done by leaving the car > 80% SoC is minimal - reports indicate it will take weeks sitting at 100% to have a measurable impact on battery health.
Can we please return to the topic at hand and hopefully someone in the US will report when they get a notification of a software update?
Since VW hasn't/won't tell us specifically when we're getting v2.1 -> v3.1 we understandably always resort to busying ourselves with other concerns. "A mind is a terrible thing to waste" especially when we can't answer the OP's [already oft asked] question. 
So as we always say 'round here, don't worry about it as when someone in the USA does get the call for an update we'll all almost instantly know.
So as we always say 'round here, don't worry about it as when someone in the USA does get the call for an update we'll all almost instantly know.
...
Can we please return to the topic at hand and hopefully someone in the US will report when they get a notification of a software update?
The slow software genuinely makes the car experience bad. At least for me, I do not understand how this was allowed to go out in this state.
I was fine with it for a while because it was a new car, new driving experience. Everything about the car is amazing EXCEPT the software and no one pedal driving(which i can live without). Now that i have been driving it for almost 2k miles, driving has become a normal experience and the frustration of the software being slow grows, i want to get in my car and turn on the AC. Not sit there and wait for the software to take 1-2 mins to wake up and then move at 2 fps to the menu. I understand it goes into a deep sleep, i think that is okay but my laptop can start up and be at the desktop in 12 seconds on average, so i feel like it isn't unreasonable to ask a $45k-$50k car to do the same.
Another thing that makes the experience worse is getting into another person car and their software is super fast and snappy. It makes my car feel like it wasn't worth the value, almost feel like i would have bought the car for 25k and the 25k discount was to let me write the software, atleast if my software breaks i can only blame myself the 1 developer not a 250 billion(2021 EUR revenue) dollar company.
If the software isn't out or it comes out and doesn't solve basic issues like the performance of the software in the next year, i will be selling it as other car companies are coming out with similar cars with better software, more features, and a similar price tag. Which would be disappointing because i was excited for VW. This is my first VW car and everything about it was so exciting to support a company planning on swapping the majority of their cars to EVs. I WANT to support it, but imo it isn't worth it if basic software is a problem for the company. I don't need OTA updates, i could even go into a service center if it meant fixing it but even the service centers were like /shrug.
This explanation of yours if factually incorrect.All it does is check with the EVSE to determine the max charge rate available to the car when plugged in, calculate a time estimate to complete a full charge at that rate, and then work backwards from the set departure time to begin its charge at some appropriate time when it expects to be completed by the time you set. It has no bearing on the rate of charge to the battery - that is determined by the BMS whether or not scheduled charging is enabled. So, regardless of when the car charges, the BMS will always meter the charge rate for optimum mix of battery health and charge time
In fact, you contradict yourself. You claim that scheduled charging has nothing to do with the BMS yet inadvertently mention (correctly) "the BMS will always meter the charge rate for optimum mix of battery health and charge time" (emphasis mine). The BMS requires knowing the proper charge time (and obviously adhering to it, which is the entire problem here) in order to correctly meter the charge rate.
Sorry, but you're misunderstanding what I wrote; I'll attempt to restate what I wrote earlier so it's more straightfoward. The point I'm making is that you are confusing the vehicle platform software that schedules charging (and has a bug) with the BMS which is separate from the software in the UI that handles the scheduled charging - the BMS actually an outsourced part (from NXP) that works fine and has no issues related to battery health.This explanation of yours if factually incorrect.
In fact, you contradict yourself. You claim that scheduled charging has nothing to do with the BMS yet inadvertently mention (correctly) "the BMS will always meter the charge rate for optimum mix of battery health and charge time" (emphasis mine). The BMS requires knowing the proper charge time (and obviously adhering to it, which is the entire problem here) in order to correctly meter the charge rate.
When you plug in a charge cable, the car does one of two things ...
1. If scheduled charging is not enabled, it tells the BMS to begin charging; the BMS asks the EVSE for its available current; the car then asks the BMS how long the charge will take and displays the time remaining on the screen while charging.
2. If scheduled charging is enabled, it tells the BMS not to be begin charging, but simply to ask the EVSE for its available current; the car then asks the BMS how long the charge will take (say 4 hours) and does math (here lies the bug - not in the BMS but in the infotainment software!) to figure out when to start the charge (say 4am) based on when the driver wants to leave (say 8am); the car then (if it were working properly) waits until 4am and tells the BMS to start charging.
In reality, something is breaking down in the Vehicle module of the infotainment software (roughly speaking, each of those modules run as a separate VM on a Linux environment on a module VW calls ICAS) and it's either forgetting to ask the BMS to being charging, or it's asking the BMS to begin charging at the wrong time. (My suspicion is that it's an issue with power management of the Linux VM environment causing the modules to go into a deep sleep / hibernation mode to save 12v battery power and it cannot wake to do scheduled charging in that state, but that's just a guess based on a long career as an engineer.)
Unless my memory fails me (and it does, it does...) LG ended up paying the majority of the "tab" on thisHyundai never published their findings but this is what LG Chem had to say:
"LG Energy Solution said that the folded anode tab had nothing to do with the fires and claimed that there was a “misapplication of the BMS charging map.” Although the supplier did not blame that issue for the fires, it said Hyundai made an “incorrect application of fast charging logic, proposed by LG Energy Solution, to the BMS.” Depending on what Hyundai discovers in the recent Norwegian blaze, that hypothesis could come back to the table."
(yes that pun is fully intended). My takeaway is that there is a 50% chance it was the folded tabs, and a 50% chance it was a poor BMS implementation. LG is in reputation-repair mode. I owned one of those Kona's. You are somewhat outspoken about VW and their lack of customer support and communication, but sorry, —Hyundai takes the prize on that score.I understand what you wrote perfectly well. Please refrain from any further condescension when addressing me or my points.Sorry, but you're misunderstanding what I wrote
As you know, and clearly stated in the portion I quoted, the BMS requires the departure time to correctly apply the charge curve.
You're welcome to your personal opinion on the subject. Before you solidify your position on that, however, I encourage you to read the article I cited since the vehicle in question was not part of the recall.My takeaway is that there is a 50% chance it was the folded tabs, and a 50% chance it was a poor BMS implementation.
Ok timing aside, if I am keeping my vehicle between 20-80%, I should have no issues with undercharge or overcharge, right? If there was an issue with the BMS, I believe issues would have started to crop up by now, given that the ID3 and eGolf have been around for a while. I know there are lots of software quirks on the front end, but not having data to show that there is something wrong with the bms and saying that the scheduled charging has caused overcharge, undercharge, and failed to charge instances doesn't really solidify that just plugging in and letting it charge to the percentage you have it set to is a problem. You say long term that as the battery ages, the cells will start to degrade. That's the case with all batteries and if it was the norm for catastrophic failure, we'd be hearing about these issues on a regular basis. I think that catastrophic failure is a very very small chance and you'd have to really abuse the battery for something to happen long term. I understand your concern based on what the scheduled charging caused, but that is not the full picture of the rest of the software for the bms. I take safety very seriously and I'm sure most everyone else here does as well. If there are issues related to the ID.4, I'm sure we'd hear about it on this forum right away. So far, the only things I've read are regarding quirks, not catastrophic.
If a poor BMS created risk for battery fires, we’d see a whole lot more Nissan Leafs aflame. They’ve been around the longest and they have the worst BMS.
Not intending to condescend - but I can be unclear when I write. (Engineer, not journalist)I understand what you wrote perfectly well. Please refrain from any further condescension when addressing me or my points.
As you know, and clearly stated in the portion I quoted, the BMS requires the departure time to correctly apply the charge curve.
Anyway, I now understand the root of your confusion! The BMS won't alter its charge curve by departure time - it determines the charge curve simply by cell voltage, battery temperature and available power. The BMS informs the car how long a charge will take and the car is supposed to tell the BMS to start charging at the appropriate time... Don't expect the car to charge more slowly if you set a departure time; it will just sit there doing nothing until it's time to start charging.
Using my example above, if the BMS determines it will take four hours to charge to the set charging level, it won't then charge at half power if you plug in at midnight; it will just wait until 4am and tell the BMS to start charging.
Again, I'm not confused. You created a straw-man--I wrote the BMS can't "correctly apply the charge curve" if it doesn't know the departure time (or ignores it) not that it alters it during a charge session by charge time.Anyway, I now understand the root of your confusion! The BMS won't alter its charge curve by departure time
Using my example above, if the BMS determines it will take four hours to charge to the set charging level, it won't then charge at half power if you plug in at midnight; it will just wait until 4am and tell the BMS to start charging.
If you want to continue having a good-faith conversation then read through the references I've provided multiple times in this discussion. Case in point: "if the BMS determines it will take four hours to charge to the set charging level, it won't then charge at half power if you plug in at midnight; it will just wait until 4am and tell the BMS to start charging."
The ID4 doesn't do this, which is the problem we've been discussing over the past year. Now, we can engage in a pedantic discussion over where that deficiency lies, whether it's appropriate to call it a faulty BMS or faulty charge logic (what I've been saying) that makes it so the BMS can't function properly...but I find it curious that you're digging your heels in over this minutiae that creates no functional difference for an end-user while not responding at all to this factually incorrect and downright dangerous claim that: "If a poor BMS created risk for battery fires," As an engineer, I'd think you'd want to correct that.
My brain hurts. Good thing I [non-scheduled] charged to 80% last night and don't typically let it get much below 50%.
Hopefully* we do get an update this "Summer", although more likely Fall or Winter, and we can put both the OP's and our divergent discussion behind us.
* "hope is not a strategy"
Hopefully* we do get an update this "Summer", although more likely Fall or Winter, and we can put both the OP's and our divergent discussion behind us.
* "hope is not a strategy"
41 - 60 of 194 Posts
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