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Seems to be a lot of ignorance about that on this forum. Plenty of European countries are not in the EU.
He simply made a joke with reference to Brexit - ipso facto, he knows about the EU.

Don't worry, Stinsy, mommy and daddy are divorced and we know you Brits are a little touchy about being forgotten at birthdays and such 😊

They say any discussion online turns political and eventually end up referencing Hitler, so let's get back to BEVs sooner rather than later 😊
 

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iD4 Pro Performance Max - Ordered July 2021 - Delivery December 2021 (hopefully)
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He simply made a joke with reference to Brexit - ipso facto, he knows about the EU.

Don't worry, Stinsy, mommy and daddy are divorced and we know you Brits are a little touchy about being forgotten at birthdays and such 😊

They say any discussion online turns political and eventually end up referencing Hitler, so let's get back to BEVs sooner rather than later 😊
No need to get your panties in a bunch. Wasn’t even aimed directly at that particular comment, there have been several similar “is the UK in Europe” comments recently.

Anyway, why is this your fight?
 

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No need to get your panties in a bunch. Wasn’t even aimed directly at that particular comment, there have been several similar “is the UK in Europe” comments recently.

Anyway, why is this your fight?
It was just a bit of friendly banter - my panties (my wife's) are quite comfy, thank you.

I know there's a certain level of ignorance sometimes, but I don't know where half the US states are either, so I let it slide not to embarass myself at a later stage 😊
 

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Finally what is a LV battery?
The LV (low-voltage) 12v automotive battery is the same as or similar to ones you'll find in pretty much any vehicle, EV or otherwise. Contrast that with the HV (high-voltage) traction battery that powers an EV and adds all that weight that gives you that nice sense of groundedness as you power through the turns on a curvy road.
 
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(Technically the 12V battery is ELV not LV, but I’m starting to realise I’m the only person who cares about correct terminology, so I’ve given in on this at least.)
Kind of like people who keep calling EVSEs "chargers", eh? :geek: At some point, I just have to go with the flow.

Thanks for the clarification, by the way.
 

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No, you're Not. ;)

btw: The supposed replacement 12V lead-acid battery is Absorbent Glass Mat (AGM) type which as the name implies holds the electrolyte in an absorbent mat so that it is not as affected by G-forces and mounting orientation as the standard battery most of us got early on in production.
Not to be confused with a Deep Cycle battery type which may be almost fully discharged and still brought back to health. Hopefully the upcoming AGM battery is also a deep cycle type as the myriad electronics appreciate a steady flow.
Related: our GLA has a discrete li-ion Aux battery for the engine auto start/stop and some other more sensitive systems. More and more manufacturers are coming to terms with these systems being glitchy with even tiny spikes in available battery flow. Many of our ID.4 gremlins are likely resultant.

(Technically the 12V battery is ELV not LV, but I’m starting to realise I’m the only person who cares about correct terminology, so I’ve given in on this at least.)
 

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So the reason to replace the LV battery is because it’s glitchy? But why does a BEV even need a traditional 12v lead acid battery anyhow? Also, how about software 2.4 and eventually 3.0 what are we looking to get in terms of feature additions?
 

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No, you're Not. ;)

btw: The supposed replacement 12V lead-acid battery is Absorbent Glass Mat (AGM) type which as the name implies holds the electrolyte in an absorbent mat so that it is not as affected by G-forces and mounting orientation as the standard battery most of us got early on in production.
Not to be confused with a Deep Cycle battery type which may be almost fully discharged and still brought back to health. Hopefully the upcoming AGM battery is also a deep cycle type as the myriad electronics appreciate a steady flow.
Related: our GLA has a discrete li-ion Aux battery for the engine auto start/stop and some other more sensitive systems. More and more manufacturers are coming to terms with these systems being glitchy with even tiny spikes in available battery flow. Many of our ID.4 gremlins are likely resultant.
Yeah. Lead-acid is an interesting choice for the 12V system of a BEV. Lead-acid can provide the huge amount of power required to start an ICE, but that is irrelevant in a BEV application. Traction-style deep-cycle lead-acid batteries tend to be much heavier per-kWh that starter-style batteries.

I’d have gone for LiFePO4 and a 48V system voltage if I’d designed the car. But if you’ve been designing the electrical systems of ICEVs for your entire career, you stick with what you know!
 

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If I do end up keeping my ID.4 for the long haul I may replace the 12V lead-acid with a Li-ion or Li-Iron type (post-warranty of course). Only done that once before (RX-8; Li-ion) and it was mostly for space/weight savings. Pricey alternative however.

Yes, the designers well know the historical 12V needs of a vehicle and so ....
Yeah. Lead-acid is an interesting choice for the 12V system of a BEV. Lead-acid can provide the huge amount of power required to start an ICE, but that is irrelevant in a BEV application. Traction-style deep-cycle lead-acid batteries tend to be much heavier per-kWh that starter-style batteries.

I’d have gone for LiFePO4 [lithium Iron] and a 48V system voltage if I’d designed the car. But if you’ve been designing the electrical systems of ICEVs for your entire career, you stick with what you know!
 

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So the reason to replace the LV battery is because it’s glitchy? But why does a BEV even need a traditional 12v lead acid battery anyhow? Also, how about software 2.4 and eventually 3.0 what are we looking to get in terms of feature additions?
The 400V traction battery is inconvenient to power auxiliary systems (lights, windows, computers, etc.) the car needs a lower voltage system that works even if the traction battery is isolated. The exact voltage and battery chemistry of this system have a wide range of options.
 

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So the reason to replace the LV battery is because it’s glitchy? But why does a BEV even need a traditional 12v lead acid battery anyhow? Also, how about software 2.4 and eventually 3.0 what are we looking to get in terms of feature additions?
My understanding is that the high voltage traction battery is physically disconnected when the car is off for safety reasons and so can't provide power to the car's systems. Given this design, the car needs a safe low voltage source for at least two reasons:
  • to energize the circuit that connects the HV battery when you turn the car on
  • to keep some of the car's electronics (like the cellular modem used for telematics) powered on when the the HV battery is disconnected
The relatively cheap and readily available 12v automotive battery has been a convenient choice for these purposes in EVs, but there are some limitations with traditional 12v batteries designed for ICE vehicles, which is why the design is being tweaked in various ways to suit the needs of EVs and their electronic systems
 

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Kind of like people who keep calling EVSEs "chargers", eh? :geek: At some point, I just have to go with the flow.

Thanks for the clarification, by the way.
An EVSE is not a charger. It can never be described as such. I’m happy to call them “charging points” particularly as in the UK they are hardwired, fixed to the wall, and often “untethered” (meaning the cable isn’t attached, the charging point has a socket and all BEV owners carry a cable). But to reiterate “charger” is just plain wrong.

I’m not as hardline when describing the batteries/electrical systems in BEVs as HV and LV. Because there are two systems one an order of magnitude higher than the other so calling one “High” and the other “Low” is understandable even if it isn’t correct use of formally defined terms.

In some countries misuse of “Danger High Voltage” signs is common, applying them to equipment that is in-fact Low Voltage. In the UK (and I guess other countries) an engineer opening a cabinet displaying “Danger High Voltage” would have to be wearing full protective gear and take necessary precautions as if there was 11kV High Voltage equipment inside, they are not permitted to assume any warning sticker has been incorrectly applied.


My understanding is that the high voltage traction battery is physically disconnected when the car is off for safety reasons and so can't provide power to the car's systems. Given this design, the car needs a safe low voltage source for at least two reasons:
  • to energize the circuit that connects the HV battery when you turn the car on
  • to keep some of the car's electronics (like the cellular modem used for telematics) powered on when the the HV battery is disconnected
The relatively cheap and readily available 12v automotive battery has been a convenient choice for these purposes in EVs, but there are some limitations with traditional 12v batteries designed for ICE vehicles, which is why the design is being tweaked in various ways to suit the needs of EVs and their electronic systems
You’re right. However military and commercial vehicles (outside North America) have been 24V for decades, so there is plenty of 24V equipment available. 12V hasn’t made sense for a long time and lead-acid is just plain wrong for an application without a starter motor!
 

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VW ID.4 1st (picked up 3/19/21).
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So the reason to replace the LV battery is because it’s glitchy? But why does a BEV even need a traditional 12v lead acid battery anyhow? Also, how about software 2.4 and eventually 3.0 what are we looking to get in terms of feature additions?
It is really so that when the car is parked, the various accessories can have power. Keyless entry, for one. Trying to power everything directly from HV battery would have huge safety issues . Normally when parked, the hv battery can be isolated from the rest of the car with relays, and the 12v battery is needed so that the relays can be closed when you want to drive.

We don't know about 3.0 features - nobody has had one that they could do exhaustive testing. A few cosmetic things are apparent, but there is surely more than that.
 

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You’re right. However military and commercial vehicles (outside North America) have been 24V for decades, so there is plenty of 24V equipment available. 12V hasn’t made sense for a long time and lead-acid is just plain wrong for an application without a starter motor!
You could redesign for 24V, but that would prevent parts reuse with other modules. As long as current requirements are low enough, 12V is adequate.
 
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