[TidingSStables]

Agree completely. The disruption to business as usual might have some long term good effects in the form of pressures for legacy makers to get their costs under control and eventually bring down the price of the entire EV market as it matures... but otherwise its just the things I don't particularly love about capitalism (but it is what it is) massively compounded by a mentally unstable billionaire with an obsession with being in the spotlight.

To get "back on topic," whatever that means from Mr Stables...

I would consider buying a MY under 2 conditions:
1. It was priced near the Bolt, as that's about the quality level it is, and what it was, in Elon's own words, built to be - an everman (or woman)'s car. You're getting the cheapened out car, you should be paying accordingly.
2. Elon stepped down from running Tesla. I just can't support the man's antics no matter how good a deal I get.

Priced in the range of ID.4, with the chief Twit in charge... not in a million years.

I never heard of the Bolt quality being bad. If it had the features of Tesla I would have bought one. The 3 and Y is the budget version of the S and X with most of the features. They are supposedly working on a 25k car. They can probably build one now which will remove FSD cameras, remove folding mirrors, remove motorized trunk, put in a slower cheaper motor that doesn’t exceed 6 seconds 0 to 60, use a 40 kW battery 200 mile range battery , put in a cheaper computer not capable of FSD and so on. That should shave it down 10k and still have a substantial profit and you would have a Bolt. Same with the Y and you would get a ID.4 Pro. We will see this released if the current demand is down as China offers a model Y SR with better specs and priced lower than an ID.4 Pro and still have margins.

 

[mtc416]

Saw this a long time ago too. The guy's opinion got seriously demolished when he claimed there's more storage in the MY than a Highlander. Ridiculous. They obviously don't know how to pack a car if that's the case, haha. MY vs ID.4 is technically equal in rear storage, but they're apportioned differently. If you want lots of small stuff on/below the floor, MY is a little better. If you want to put anything large in the back, forget it, the roof makes it impossible. I need that more often personally, but many might not, so ID.4 works out better for me most times. Also, I should note, that I took out the raised floor panel completely. If I didn't have kids, and therefore 2 carseats in the back, I would keep it in there and fold down the back seats for when I need larger storage... but I'm only going to do that if I really have to. So the floor leveling isn't that useful and adding those few inches to the main storage area is more convenient. I also have the muddybuddy liner back there, and find accessing any of the below floor storage less than ideal normally, let alone if I have other stuff back there (which is most of the time). That makes the larger under floor storage of the MY not particularly useful to me in the day to day. I'd much rather have more above and eliminate the under floor - but the motor layout doesn't allow for that.

He's of course right that ID.4 is drastically better build quality and better interior experience. By "minimalistic" look for MY, he meant "fugly and uncomfortable, lacking in basic features of well designed automobiles." But agree that some of the choices of buttons etc in ID.4 are weird... some just weird but not necessarily bad, some just plain dumb. But I'll still take dumb buttons over no buttons. No backlighting on some buttons was a huge mistake. It doesn't bother me much as I'm used to it now, but really bad decision. Roof cover is huge. MY build quality sucking is exactly what I've been saying all this time. Piano black does suck - thankfully my Cosmic trim eliminates a lot of that, but the little that remains will someday be vinyl wrapped. Gotta stop with the piano black VW. New phone charger situation is better in 23 model, but still not visible if that's what you're looking for - I agree w/ VW's philosophy that you shouldn't really be looking at it much anyway, and new design is more easily accessible. Seats and general comfort, ID.4 destroys MY. Heated rear seats is nice, but not really that necessary - most people hardly use back seats, or have car seats back there. Reclining rear seats would be nice perk, but again, not critical for same reason above. What I would love to see, and can't recall but don' think MY has either, is a sliding rear seat. Again, for those of us with carseats back there, we can't easily fold down seats for extra cargo space - I'd love to be able to slide the whole thing forward a bit to gain a little extra storage when needed. Ionic 5 has this, haven't seen too many 2 row SUVs with it though... I would love to see that. I might be a fringe case there, but would be huge for me.

I don't care for look of MY, but will say his is the best color on it, so its not as bad. Cleaning stuff is fair point, but also has rear wiper etc, so...

Ride quality is massively important and way better in ID.4. D/B mode needs some software tweaks to make it really right, including being able to bring it down to a stop and being able to adjust regen slightly more aggressive, but not as much as MY.

Charging stuff well documented - we all know Tesla wins here. For most of us that don't use that much, certainly not going to weigh that over much more important things like ride and build quality that matter every day.

The software, same - we know Tesla does better here, other than stupid things like screen location for blind spot, no glove box button, etc. But execution is way better other than terrible decisions.

Basically other than some head scratcher opinions on storage space, agree with most of what he says other than the conclusion - I don't see how his set of impressions leads to the conclusion, unless you road trip frequently and think that's a good idea in a BEV.

 

[mtc416]

I never heard of the Bolt quality being bad. If it had the features of Tesla I would have bought one. The 3 and Y is the budget version of the S and X with most of the features. They are supposedly working on a 25k car. They can probably build one now which will remove FSD cameras, remove folding mirrors, remove motorized trunk, put in a slower cheaper motor that doesn’t exceed 6 seconds 0 to 60, use a 40 kW battery 200 mile range battery , put in a cheaper computer not capable of FSD and so on. That should shave it down 10k and still have a substantial profit and you would have a Bolt. Same with the Y and you would get a ID.4 Pro. We will see this released if the current demand is down as China offers a model Y SR with better specs and priced lower than an ID.4 Pro and still have margins.

Its not too bad, but it is priced to suit. It is what its meant to be, and thats what you're paying for. Elon himself said these cars (3 and Y) were supposed to be in that price range (30k ish). He built them to that build quality level. The big problem is not that its that quality level, its that its way overpriced for that quality level - make a car for the masses with compromises on build quality to keep costs down, and I'm on board. Make that same car and then charge nearly double what its worth, and you've lost me.

No, stripping all of that down would not give you an ID.4 Pro. Maybe could make an argument for in the ballpark of a Standard, but would still be way behind on so many issues of ride quality, build quality, etc.

 

[tacomambo]

TESLA now qualifies for additional 2k rebate in california via cvrp and $7500 for those within 400% poverty level... possible $15k savings

 

[Dougie01]

Tesla reduces prices again, and Elon Musk gives an Economics 101 lesson.

"On Twitter Friday, Tesla CEO Elon Musk wrote that demand is limited by affordability. “There is plenty of demand for our products, but if the price is more money than people have, that demand is irrelevant,” he wrote."

Wow.

 

[Nocedit]

I like my 2022 german built ID.4... but at the current price point for a Model Y... I would have probably purchased a Model Y if the ID.4 hadn't been delivered late last year. (2 weeks before Tesla price cuts began). But then again, the way Tesla dropped the prices slowly... I probably would have overpaid still. I did not expect Tesla to drop price so dramatically and so often. Could be worse... I know a friend who bought a Model 3 performance for $64K last November... just before the price cuts began. Atleast VW hasn't devalued my purchase at all yet.

 

[VW TECHNICIAN]

I like my 2022 german built ID.4... but at the current price point for a Model Y... I would have probably purchased a Model Y if the ID.4 hadn't been delivered late last year. (2 weeks before Tesla price cuts began). But then again, the way Tesla dropped the prices slowly... I probably would have overpaid still. I did not expect Tesla to drop price so dramatically and so often. Could be worse... I know a friend who bought a Model 3 performance for $64K last November... just before the price cuts began. Atleast VW hasn't devalued my purchase at all yet.

But you should know that Tesla is pushing pack that has no ability for repairs if there are issues with cells. Tesla Y standard range is using this type of pack. And this will eventually affect resale value once more people are aware of this type of battery pack.
And fat cells in this pack are still Tesla experiment that dosent have enough data on cells reliability.....
2170 are still best that Tesla has on the market. 1860 are another good option. Both smaller size cylindrical cells are able for easy pack repairs if module needs replacing

 

[Spin]

I would seriously consider it. My experience with VW and its dealers is that their customer service leaves much to be desired.

 

[VW TECHNICIAN]

I would seriously consider it. My experience with VW and its dealers is that their customer service leaves much to be desired.

After sales customer satisfaction is something that many US dealerships have need to work on... VW dealership's or Tesla. Try to get in contact with honest Tesla owner that is not brainwashed, and you will find out quickly how Tesla service network is doing.

 

[Spin]

After sales customer satisfaction is something that many US dealerships have need to work on... VW dealership's or Tesla. Try to get in contact with honest Tesla owner that is not brainwashed, and you will find out quickly how Tesla service network is doing.

I have no experience with Tesla service but I do have experience with VW dealers. Twice I have made service appointments (at 2 different dealers) and they were not ready for me when I showed up. They wait until I get there to tell me they are not ready? Unacceptable.

 

[TidingSStables]

But you should’ve know that Tesla is pushing pack that has no ability for repairs if there are issues with cells. Tesla Y standard range is using this type of pack. And this will eventually affect resale value once more people are aware of this type of battery pack.
And fat cells in this pack are still Tesla experiment that dosent have enough data on cells reliability.....
2170 are still best that Tesla has on the market. 1860 are another good option. Both smaller size cylindrical cells are able for easy pack repairs if module needs replacing

I would think they have this figured out by now with statistics collected. Typically 2 fenders, a door and a hood or trunk is claimed as a loss if you watch Wham Bamm Tesla cam. Even scratched up wheels are replaced rather than refinished. I had a slow speed collision on a fender and bumper and it was 8k including the lights, panels, paint installation. Teslas that have high speed frame damage or too many components are not deemed safe for the road and too expensive to fix that’s why they will total it. Also they don’t make spare parts lying around, as everything is used and put on the car to get sold. I have Tesla insurance, significantly less than Geico.

 

[TidingSStables]

I have no experience with Tesla service but I do have experience with VW dealers. Twice I have made service appointments (at 2 different dealers) and they were not ready for me when I showed up. They wait until I get there to tell me they are not ready? Unacceptable.

The VW dealership is like any other dealership franchise to make money. Working with Tesla is more like dealing with corporate, which will follow strict policies whereas the local dealership can come up with either a deal or a steal from customers. I’ve always had good customer service from the legacy dealer repairs but not so much the sales. Tesla service is also app dependent asking you to take photos and describe problems in text, so those who are tech illiterate will suffer. Also you can’t just roll in a Tesla service center refuse bringing in repairs without app appointments up to 2 months unless it’s an emergency and your car is a danger vs a dealership who is happy to take your money anytime.

 

[wildpitcher]

'Could be. ;-)

But if it were simply a four position rotary knob, then you would know, with certainty, that if you rolled the knob all the way forwards to the mechanical stop, you'd be in “B” mode and if you rolled it all the way back, you'd be in “Reverse” mode and there'd be no need to check any indicators. Right now, upon rolling forward, you either need to 1) remember which forward mode the car was last in or 2) check the D/B indicators to see which mode the car landed in. The current design has a much higher cognitive load than the traditional design.

I hear you, but my OCD traits will make me look at the lighted indicator anyway, so...

Dave

 

[wildpitcher]

Back on topic:

For grins, I priced a Tesla Model Y today that is equivalent to my Red ID.4 Pro S that I bought back in December. That is, a Red Model Y LR Dual Motor, with a tow hitch and standard features for everything else. The result:

The Long Range Model Y is $2,000 more than we paid for our ID.4. If I configured a standard range Model Y, it would be $1,000 less than what we paid for the ID.4

The Model Y is not a bad car, certainly, but it is missing some things that would be show stoppers for my wife and I:

1. A driver console
2. Android Auto
3. Blind spot monitors in the mirrors (not entirely sure about this one, but it's what I've read here).

All that and $2K more makes it a no-go. Even at $1K less, it doesn't move me.

Things I don't care about that Model Y does well:

1. 0-60 speed is faster
2. Top speed is higher
3. OTA updates
4. Navigation (we use AA and Google maps)
5. Farts on command

Again, I don't care about those.

Some will have different needs than we do, and they may prefer the MY over the ID.4. For us, though, the ID.4 is much preferred.

Dave

 

[VW TECHNICIAN]

I would think they have this figured out by now with statistics collected. Typically 2 fenders, a door and a hood or trunk is claimed as a loss if you watch Wham Bamm Tesla cam. Even scratched up wheels are replaced rather than refinished. I had a slow speed collision on a fender and bumper and it was 8k including the lights, panels, paint installation. Teslas that have high speed frame damage or too many components are not deemed safe for the road and too expensive to fix that’s why they will total it. Also they don’t make spare parts lying around, as everything is used and put on the car to get sold. I have Tesla insurance, significantly less than Geico.

If they adopt technology like what Rimac is doing....they will be able to do body work, even if you hit concrete wall doing 60 MPH.
And this will be next evolution step in EV chassis design.... for now it is for multi million dream machines.
Battery pack design that Tesla is doing, would be OK, if you can buy new pack for 10k or less with labor included. Tesla is using sword with double edges....collecting rebate for each kWh produced and vertical integration for pack engineering that only benefits Tesla margin. Customers are left on the burner to take all disadvantages of this design. Future resale will fall of the cliff because of this pack design, Customers will get ripped off for pack replacement, recycling ♻ companies will share additional benefits of cost reduction between recyclers and Tesla. From corporate position , including me there is nothing but win-win for companies and corporate employees. Regarding Aluminum extrusion and chassis that Tesla is doing, this is necessary at this stage of battery density. There are sacrifices that come with collision that will make many EV with this design, even with minor damage non repairable. I just can't find myself in shoes of Tesla owner, no matter how hard i try.

 

[p__x]

Back on topic:

For grins, I priced a Tesla Model Y today that is equivalent to my Red ID.4 Pro S that I bought back in December. That is, a Red Model Y LR Dual Motor, with a tow hitch and standard features for everything else. The result:

The Long Range Model Y is $2,000 more than we paid for our ID.4. If I configured a standard range Model Y, it would be $1,000 less than what we paid for the ID.4

The Model Y is not a bad car, certainly, but it is missing some things that would be show stoppers for my wife and I:

1. A driver console
2. Android Auto
3. Blind spot monitors in the mirrors (not entirely sure about this one, but it's what I've read here).

4. Friggin radars.

I wouldn't touch a vision-only Tesla with a stick.

 

[TidingSStables]

If they adopt technology like what Rimac is doing....they will be able to do body work, even if you hit concrete wall doing 60 MPH.
And this will be next evolution step in EV chassis design.... for now it is for multi million dream machines.
Battery pack design that Tesla is doing, would be OK, if you can buy new pack for 10k or less with labor included. Tesla is using sword with double edges....collecting rebate for each kWh produced and vertical integration for pack engineering that only benefits Tesla margin. Customers are left on the burner to take all disadvantages of this design. Future resale will fall of the cliff because of this pack design, Customers will get ripped off for pack replacement, recycling ♻ companies will share additional benefits of cost reduction between recyclers and Tesla. From corporate position , including me there is nothing but win-win for companies and corporate employees. Regarding Aluminum extrusion and chassis that Tesla is doing, this is necessary at this stage of battery density. There are sacrifices that come with collision that will make many EV with this design, even with minor damage non repairable. I just can't find myself in shoes of Tesla owner, no matter how hard i try.

Easy solution is to build a car with FSD that won’t crash. (Not autopilot)

 

[null]

Reason for not buying Tesla if you care about your privacy

https://www.engadget.com/tesla-employees-reportedly-shared-videos-captured-by-cameras-on-customers-cars-165703126.html?src=rss