I did see this review. It was an interesting review but he definitely got distracted by the scenery too often. There are a number of differences between the Q4 and the ID.4 that encourage me to wait for the arrival of Q4 before making a purchase decision. The fact that the AWD version is not raised is vs. the RWD should enhance handling. Yes, the ID.4 is a better value but from what I can see so far, the Q4 is a significant upgrade ( for a significant cost).
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Test: ID.4 GTX (AWD) Sibling - Audi Q4 50 e-tron quattro Euro Spec.
Here's the test video of the Audi Q4 50 e-tron quattro.
by Kyle Conner of Out of Spec Reviews
7S POWER
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I like the ID.4 AWD, but my heart leans more toward the quattro.I did see this review. It was an interesting review but he definitely got distracted by the scenery too often. There are a number of differences between the Q4 and the ID.4 that encourage me to wait for the arrival of Q4 before making a purchase decision. The fact that the AWD version is not raised is vs. the RWD should enhance handling. Yes, the ID.4 is a better value but from what I can see so far, the Q4 is a significant upgrade ( for a significant cost).
7S POWER
I want the Audi, wife wants the ID.4. She says Audi 'phoned it in' on the design, and it looks too much like our current ICE Q5. Not to mention that the only interior colors are all dark other than the seats. They certainly cheaped out on some things from a crappy printed logo for the steering wheel to a much smaller cockpit screen than is in my Q5 (it's more on the order of the Q3 in size despite the bigger interior dimensions).
When you option out a car that gets close to the same level of equipment as the AWD Pro S Gradient, which stickers just shy of $50k, the Audi is almost $7k more because you have to go to the Premium Plus and add the Technology Package ($2,200) and pay extra for the Trailer Hitch. Granted, you do get a more regular dash cluster, regen adjust padels, and a SONOS tuned sound system over the VW.
It still remains to be seen what Audi chooses to do with their connected car platform, but it doesn't appear to have come to this car. This car is also still running the same OS stack as the current ICE cars from what I can tell, so no OTA other than nav updates, etc. And nobody in any review has touched on any EV specifics added to the MMI that I can noticeably see and I've watched Bjorn, Kyle, Matt (from CarWow) and any number of other reviews on Youtube of the Euro version.
And if you want to keep some of the features that VW provides 'for free', you are looking at a very expensive subscription to maintain things like natural voice recognition, traffic information,etc. for $36 a month/$365 a year. Granted, that also includes Google Maps and some other niceties. But competitor Tesla, in the same price range as this, charges only $10 a month for I believe. So for a typical 3-year lease, you are looking at another $1k potentially in connected fees. Heck on some cars to unlock the lighting patterns for the headlamps and taillamps, Audi charges a lifetime $260 fee, which I don't think applies to the Q4, but it's hard to tell.
Overall, I think it's a miss for Audi. I know they are trying to ease the way for people to transition from ICE to EV, but IMHO this isn't the way to do it.
When you option out a car that gets close to the same level of equipment as the AWD Pro S Gradient, which stickers just shy of $50k, the Audi is almost $7k more because you have to go to the Premium Plus and add the Technology Package ($2,200) and pay extra for the Trailer Hitch. Granted, you do get a more regular dash cluster, regen adjust padels, and a SONOS tuned sound system over the VW.
It still remains to be seen what Audi chooses to do with their connected car platform, but it doesn't appear to have come to this car. This car is also still running the same OS stack as the current ICE cars from what I can tell, so no OTA other than nav updates, etc. And nobody in any review has touched on any EV specifics added to the MMI that I can noticeably see and I've watched Bjorn, Kyle, Matt (from CarWow) and any number of other reviews on Youtube of the Euro version.
And if you want to keep some of the features that VW provides 'for free', you are looking at a very expensive subscription to maintain things like natural voice recognition, traffic information,etc. for $36 a month/$365 a year. Granted, that also includes Google Maps and some other niceties. But competitor Tesla, in the same price range as this, charges only $10 a month for I believe. So for a typical 3-year lease, you are looking at another $1k potentially in connected fees. Heck on some cars to unlock the lighting patterns for the headlamps and taillamps, Audi charges a lifetime $260 fee, which I don't think applies to the Q4, but it's hard to tell.
Overall, I think it's a miss for Audi. I know they are trying to ease the way for people to transition from ICE to EV, but IMHO this isn't the way to do it.
We have a 2016 Audi A6 and the MMI has been flawless. We pay only $10/month for live traffic, etc. and never use the hotspot.
Audi does not need OTA updates for MMI. VW really, really needs OTA updates for their half baked software ( this also applies to the new GTI, not just the ID.4).
I prefer the use of more buttons in the Audi and the normal armrest. Not a fan of the minivan armrests in the VW.
For me the interior of the VW is a bit "cartoonish" ( mainly the displays and controls) vs the more upscale (mature?) Audi interior. I mean, I could live with the VW interior but I definitely do not prefer it.
I am disappointed that the panoramic roof is standard in the Audi and required in all but the most basic VW trim level.
Audi does not need OTA updates for MMI. VW really, really needs OTA updates for their half baked software ( this also applies to the new GTI, not just the ID.4).
I prefer the use of more buttons in the Audi and the normal armrest. Not a fan of the minivan armrests in the VW.
For me the interior of the VW is a bit "cartoonish" ( mainly the displays and controls) vs the more upscale (mature?) Audi interior. I mean, I could live with the VW interior but I definitely do not prefer it.
I am disappointed that the panoramic roof is standard in the Audi and required in all but the most basic VW trim level.
Yeah but the option you have for $10 a month on your A6 is no longer available. And you are in the last generation connected car platform I believe. Honestly my 18 Q5 is now a generation old as well, so yours may even be 2 gens old at this point? The new ones are all much more expensive to connect.
I agree to Audi interior is more ‘mature’ but they really limited the options on what’s available. Grey seats and a grey headliner are the only options to lighten the interior.
As far as OTA, not sure I agree with you. At the Audi price point your competition is now solidly the Model Y which is a stretch comparison for the VW. And the infotainment, while solid in the Audi no doubt, the Model Y arguably mops it in about every dimension other than CarPlay/Android Auto. Just route mapping alone seems to not be as good. I almost never use the navin our car as it’s not as good as even Apple, which itself is a distant second to Google.
I agree to Audi interior is more ‘mature’ but they really limited the options on what’s available. Grey seats and a grey headliner are the only options to lighten the interior.
As far as OTA, not sure I agree with you. At the Audi price point your competition is now solidly the Model Y which is a stretch comparison for the VW. And the infotainment, while solid in the Audi no doubt, the Model Y arguably mops it in about every dimension other than CarPlay/Android Auto. Just route mapping alone seems to not be as good. I almost never use the navin our car as it’s not as good as even Apple, which itself is a distant second to Google.
I agree the ID4 gets away with a lot because it is so much cheaper than the TMY. Q4 is bang on the same price point as TMY so infotainment / performance / storage space / drivetrain efficiency / etc. can be compared directly and frankly the Q4 fails.
I say that as a long time Audi fan (and Tesla / Musk hater).
I say that as a long time Audi fan (and Tesla / Musk hater).
Yeah I really want the Audi to be awesome. But it’s just honestly mediocre. And it drives just like the VW. So it didn’t even have dynamics to distinguish it as they have in the past.I agree the ID4 gets away with a lot because it is so much cheaper than the TMY. Q4 is bang on the same price point as TMY so infotainment / performance / storage space / drivetrain efficiency / etc. can be compared directly and frankly the Q4 fails.
I say that as a long time Audi fan (and Tesla / Musk hater).
Maybe Audi will catch up with the next version in 3 years, but even that’s a stretch given that Audi tends to do only mid-model refreshes in a 3 to 4 year basis after a major new model.
But I feel like they are coasting.
I am also no fan of Musk but there is a world of difference in the build quality for an Audi vs. a Tesla. In my book, more bells and whistles do not make up for fundamentally poor build quality/execution and restricted servicing.I agree the ID4 gets away with a lot because it is so much cheaper than the TMY. Q4 is bang on the same price point as TMY so infotainment / performance / storage space / drivetrain efficiency / etc. can be compared directly and frankly the Q4 fails.
I say that as a long time Audi fan (and Tesla / Musk hater).
For example the Passat was based on the MQB platform whereas the A4 was based on the MLB platform. Similar sized sedans but very difficult class of underpinnings. The Q4 is the iD4 with a fake grille and traditional heater controls.Yeah I really want the Audi to be awesome. But it’s just honestly mediocre. And it drives just like the VW. So it didn’t even have dynamics to distinguish it as they have in the past.
Maybe Audi will catch up with the next version in 3 years, but even that’s a stretch given that Audi tends to do only mid-model refreshes in a 3 to 4 year basis after a major new model.
But I feel like they are coasting.
Every criticism of the iD4 in comparison with the TMY is countered with “yeah but the iD4 is 15k cheaper”. The Q4 has no such defence.
Yep. I had a fun 'argument' with the sales guy at Audi when I bought my 2018 A3 (since sold back thanks to COVID and just sitting in the garage. It too was 'built on' MQB (the transverse platform vs MLB the longitudinal platform of the bigger sedans and SUV's like my Q5).For example the Passat was based on the MQB platform whereas the A4 was based on the MLB platform. Similar sized sedans but very difficult class of underpinnings. The Q4 is the iD4 with a fake grille and traditional heater controls.
Every criticism of the iD4 in comparison with the TMY is countered with “yeah but the iD4 is 15k cheaper”. The Q4 has no such defence.
Anyhow, he claimed there was no way I would find a VW emblem on anything in the car, that it was all Audi. I told him that was funny since the motor was the same basic TSFI motor used in a whole bunch of VW's (including the Passat) just tuned differently. LOL There were co-branded VW/Audi markings all over the inside of the motor bay. Not that I was worried about it or particularly cared. But I don't think you'd have confused it's driving characteristics for a Passat. Same platform, different wheelbase, different tunings, etc.
All things Audi COULD also do presumably with MQB. But here that Audi seems to have not spent much time tuning the underpinnings to make the car feel different from all the videos I've seen. LOL Maybe it was a lack of time to get the car into the market? Dunno. Sure there will be a real S version at some point (or RS if you prefer), that will 'hot hatch' it up. And the Q3/Q5 are what's selling the most Audi's in volume, so they are probably banking on the cross-shopping to keep it relevant for people otherwise turned off by Tesla.
I suspect the next eTron midsized and up will move to PPE, same as the Porsche's and new Audi QT. The rest will stay on MQB unless there is a different electric platform coming between the two that I missed. But the MLB and MQB days are numbered if VW Group truly stops making ICE cars, as no such thing as a longitudinally-mounted electric. So Audi will have to differentiate on tuning for the drive train and then the typical coachworks and infotainment systems vs their sister brands.
I do know oddly, that Audi continues to not put the Q4 on the US on their branded 'all-electric vehicles' page even though it's the very first picture on the same. And despite all the splashy announcements. Which might be an oversight, or it might be prescient to how many they think they will actually sell. Audi Electric Models | e-tron® family, hybrids | Audi USA You have to go to the all models list to find it.
Audi also had a $650 3d camera view option on the Q4 page when it first went up that has now mysteriously disappeared as well.
I saw that and wondered if they made it standard, or we’re having issues/part shortages and got rid of it.Audi also had a $650 3d camera view option on the Q4 page when it first went up that has now mysteriously disappeared as well.
I can't find it in the list of standard equipment, so I think they dropped it for the moment.I saw that and wondered if they made it standard, or we’re having issues/part shortages and got rid of it.
Interestingly the e-tron is MLB and the e-tron GT is MSB (both ICEV platforms).Yep. I had a fun 'argument' with the sales guy at Audi when I bought my 2018 A3 (since sold back thanks to COVID and just sitting in the garage. It too was 'built on' MQB (the transverse platform vs MLB the longitudinal platform of the bigger sedans and SUV's like my Q5).
Anyhow, he claimed there was no way I would find a VW emblem on anything in the car, that it was all Audi. I told him that was funny since the motor was the same basic TSFI motor used in a whole bunch of VW's (including the Passat) just tuned differently. LOL There were co-branded VW/Audi markings all over the inside of the motor bay. Not that I was worried about it or particularly cared. But I don't think you'd have confused it's driving characteristics for a Passat. Same platform, different wheelbase, different tunings, etc.
All things Audi COULD also do presumably with MQB. But here that Audi seems to have not spent much time tuning the underpinnings to make the car feel different from all the videos I've seen. LOL Maybe it was a lack of time to get the car into the market? Dunno. Sure there will be a real S version at some point (or RS if you prefer), that will 'hot hatch' it up. And the Q3/Q5 are what's selling the most Audi's in volume, so they are probably banking on the cross-shopping to keep it relevant for people otherwise turned off by Tesla.
I suspect the next eTron midsized and up will move to PPE, same as the Porsche's and new Audi QT. The rest will stay on MQB unless there is a different electric platform coming between the two that I missed. But the MLB and MQB days are numbered if VW Group truly stops making ICE cars, as no such thing as a longitudinally-mounted electric. So Audi will have to differentiate on tuning for the drive train and then the typical coachworks and infotainment systems vs their sister brands.
I do know oddly, that Audi continues to not put the Q4 on the US on their branded 'all-electric vehicles' page even though it's the very first picture on the same. And despite all the splashy announcements. Which might be an oversight, or it might be prescient to how many they think they will actually sell. Audi Electric Models | e-tron® family, hybrids | Audi USA You have to go to the all models list to find it.
I wonder if VAG is intending to build all their BEVs on the MEB platform or if there’ll be another BEV platform for bigger, higher end vehicles.
As you say VAG made a huge range of very different vehicles based on MQB (eg Polo and Altus). Whereas iD4, Q4, Enyaq, all seem to be identical except for styling.
Interesting that I didn't see this until I started poking around: Everything we know about the Audi Q6 e-tron in August 2021 (topelectricsuv.com)Interestingly the e-tron is MLB and the e-tron GT is MSB (both ICEV platforms).
I wonder if VAG is intending to build all their BEVs on the MEB platform or if there’ll be another BEV platform for bigger, higher end vehicles.
As you say VAG made a huge range of very different vehicles based on MQB (eg Polo and Altus). Whereas iD4, Q4, Enyaq, all seem to be identical except for styling.
So from that article is does appear that for the 'lower end' Audi's that align roughly with the current 'entry cars' (Q3, A3, and A4) will all be built on some version of MEB. Where everything starting with equivalence to the A6/Q5 and up will most likely be built on PPE. And I'm guessing that means VW's will almost all be built on MEB. Not sure where the current A5 goes.
Audi seems to be replacing all the ICE cars with new numbers that are one higher, so evens for electric and odds for ICE. If that holds, at least for Audi SUVs:
- Q3 -> Q4 subcompact range - which explains a lot in terms of the choices Audi is making for the Q4, because it does FEEL to me like a slightly upscale Q3 just with more space
- Q5 -> Q6 compact range - coming sometime next year
- Q7 -> midsize range all new electric Q8 which collapses the ICE Q8 and the Etron into one offering
Also interesting to note from that article that the Q6 infotainment will be built on Android Auto (a custom Audi build from ASOP vs a Google provided build at that), dropping the current in-house built tech stack in the current cars (and being put in the Q4 as well). So clearly the Q5 will be what Audi is putting up against the Tesla Model Y, still more than a year from now.
The question will be where the price sits, as everything Audi is moving upmarket by about $10k it seems in the transition to electric. So a Q5 would presumably start in today's market around $55k, just like the Q4 is about $10k more than the Q3. At that starting price, they clip into the Model Y performance and the Audi is likely to go up another $10k in options if past holds true. They will have a fight on their hands more so than any current MEB car vs the Model Y. If it starts at $70k at the article implies, it's dead before it even gets here I think.
EDIT: Oh, and watching the little sizzle reel on the PPE platform, it still doesn't look like it will have room for a frunk. Sorry Sandy.
Yes the PPE does make sense (hadn't heard of it before). The Atlus really was a bit silly, in taking the MQB platform to the extreme. More of "how can we make an SUV as cheaply as possible".Interesting that I didn't see this until I started poking around: Everything we know about the Audi Q6 e-tron in August 2021 (topelectricsuv.com)
So from that article is does appear that for the 'lower end' Audi's that align roughly with the current 'entry cars' (Q3, A3, and A4) will all be built on some version of MEB. Where everything starting with equivalence to the A6/Q5 and up will most likely be built on PPE. And I'm guessing that means VW's will almost all be built on MEB. Not sure where the current A5 goes.
Audi seems to be replacing all the ICE cars with new numbers that are one higher, so evens for electric and odds for ICE. If that holds, at least for Audi SUVs:
No VW brand currently offers a full size SUV, and not sure I see them doing that either. The VW Atlas sort of spreads out to be a bit bigger than the Q7, but it's still considered a mid-sized SUV.
- Q3 -> Q4 subcompact range - which explains a lot in terms of the choices Audi is making for the Q4, because it does FEEL to me like a slightly upscale Q3 just with more space
- Q5 -> Q6 compact range - coming sometime next year
- Q7 -> midsize range all new electric Q8 which collapses the ICE Q8 and the Etron into one offering
Also interesting to note from that article that the Q6 infotainment will be built on Android Auto (a custom Audi build from ASOP vs a Google provided build at that), dropping the current in-house built tech stack in the current cars (and being put in the Q4 as well). So clearly the Q5 will be what Audi is putting up against the Tesla Model Y, still more than a year from now.
The question will be where the price sits, as everything Audi is moving upmarket by about $10k it seems in the transition to electric. So a Q5 would presumably start in today's market around $55k, just like the Q4 is about $10k more than the Q3. At that starting price, they clip into the Model Y performance and the Audi is likely to go up another $10k in options if past holds true. They will have a fight on their hands more so than any current MEB car vs the Model Y. If it starts at $70k at the article implies, it's dead before it even gets here I think.
EDIT: Oh, and watching the little sizzle reel on the PPE platform, it still doesn't look like it will have room for a frunk. Sorry Sandy.
PPE will provide the bigger Audis, smaller Bentleys as well as Porsche Sedans/SUVs a platform on which to be built. I wonder if VW will use PPE for a full-size sedan/wagon or mid-size SUV?
I'm going to guess no, but never say never. LOL They've already announced the ID.6 for China, which is almost a foot longer than the ID.4 with a 3rd row, so it would seem to potentially be the Atlas replacement in the US if it comes here. But it would be like $10k more than the ID.4, which is already at the top of the VW price range I think.I wonder if VW will use PPE for a full-size sedan/wagon or mid-size SUV?
Volkswagen Group MEB platform - Wikipedia has a nice overview of all the planned/announced cars coming on MEB. Ford is in a cost and platform sharing agreement with VW for MEB as well, so will be interesting to see when, or if, Ford starts bringing MEB-based cars to market as well.
It seems then, that VW will either have to wait until 2025 for the next-gen electric platform or for some 'MEB Evo' though to get to Hyundai/Porsche/Audi PPE class charging in the 600V-700V/250kw range, as the current MEB platform is all 125KW/400V. VW will no doubt probably introduce some variants of the ID.4 to the US market once Chattanooga comes online, and I could see them offering some incremental things to better compete with the Hyundai like a VW version of vehicle-to-load.
I was thinking a BEV Phaeton or Touareg might be PPE.I'm going to guess no, but never say never. LOL They've already announced the ID.6 for China, which is almost a foot longer than the ID.4 with a 3rd row, so it would seem to potentially be the Atlas replacement in the US if it comes here. But it would be like $10k more than the ID.4, which is already at the top of the VW price range I think.
Volkswagen Group MEB platform - Wikipedia has a nice overview of all the planned/announced cars coming on MEB. Ford is in a cost and platform sharing agreement with VW for MEB as well, so will be interesting to see when, or if, Ford starts bringing MEB-based cars to market as well.
It seems then, that VW will either have to wait until 2025 for the next-gen electric platform or for some 'MEB Evo' though to get to Hyundai/Porsche/Audi PPE class charging in the 600V-700V/250kw range, as the current MEB platform is all 125KW/400V. VW will no doubt probably introduce some variants of the ID.4 to the US market once Chattanooga comes online, and I could see them offering some incremental things to better compete with the Hyundai like a VW version of vehicle-to-load.
I read somewhere that all MEB cars would be V2G capable in 2022...
Maybe. I know they had ambitions to take a crack at the Phaeton again, maybe for China? And the current gen Touareg R looks really nice, but not sure I ever see that coming to the US either and WOW the price (north of $100k)!I was thinking a BEV Phaeton or Touareg might be PPE.
I heard the same somewhere as well. Though I doubt it will be a retrofit to the first-gen since from the high power schematics we have now, it appears the current charging unit is only one way and not bi-directional. And who knows what other components would need to be adjusted as well, not to mention software. It shouldn't be that hard to add I wouldn't think technically, but still a lot of things to touch.I read somewhere that all MEB cars would be V2G capable in 2022...
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