[ericy]

I have to disagree with you guys that free charging is bad. To me, it's a great incentive that can take some worry off the shoulders of non EV enthusiasts who just want a car, but are not sure how they will charge it. Some do not have access to level 2 charging, a person in a condo or apartment complex may not be allowed to install a L2 unit, and free charging can still get them into a car. I think a positive thing that can come from this is that these Charge companies will see the complaints of not having enough chargers nearby, thus making it more viable to create new charging areas, some a lot closer to neighborhoods and homes. At least, I hope that's how it plays out.

I get that some people are in a position such that they can't install a L2 at home. But unlimited free charging (or 30 minute free charging) for 3 years is very generous, and I know of people who could install an L2 who choose not to, or will install one once the free charging deal is over.

But what's actually happening is that people are more and more reluctant to take long road trips because of congestion at DCFC. And yes, broken chargers do make the situation worse, but as things stand there is now this unpredictability which is now a disincentive for people to purchase the car.

 

[pezzy668]

My viewing of Kyle's videos has dropped of a bit lately - his 45 minutes of complaining about charging stations was way too much. Yeah the charging infrastructure sucks right now but it doesn't require 45 minutes of air time. Also I kinda gathered his mechanical knowledge is pretty lacking when he admitted he really didn't know how a heat pump worked. His snow "removal" techniques make me cringe as well - looks like he is the type to leave a car covered in snow except the windows and let the sheets of snow blow off on the cars behind him.

On to the using proper chargers for what your car can accept, it seems many new EV drivers really don't know what the numbers mean. I have seen two cars (BMW iX and Ioniq5) that can accept over 150 pull in and plug into 150 stations when there were 350 stations available - I almost said something to the owners but I was unplugging and getting ready to rock so just said to hell with it and left. I know it would have been the courteous thing to do but you never know how people are going to react and I just don't have it in me to deal with all that if they don't want your input.

I wish these various charging station operators would paint in the stall the max rate of the charger, couple times I have pulled into a 350 and didn't realize until I was standing in front of the screen. Every time this has happened there were no other cars charging and there were other 350 stations available so I just plugged in and went on with my charge, if the other 350's were in use and I plugged into the last available one I would probably have moved to a 150.

 

[CTNP]

I get that some people are in a position such that they can't install a L2 at home. But unlimited free charging (or 30 minute free charging) for 3 years is very generous, and I know of people who could install an L2 who choose not to, or will install one once the free charging deal is over.

But what's actually happening is that people are more and more reluctant to take long road trips because of congestion at DCFC. And yes, broken chargers do make the situation worse, but as things stand there is now this unpredictability which is now a disincentive for people to purchase the car.

Another thing to consider is that if people used DCFC pricing to pay to fill up their cars it looks a little less attractive in cost/mile for routine charges

 

[truthseeker]

Another thing to consider is that if people used DCFC pricing to pay to fill up their cars it looks a little less attractive in cost/mile for routine charges

It doesn't just look a little less attractive. It looks plain unattractive. Here in the Southeast it costs 35-36 cents per minute (including tax) to charge at Electrify America. In the winter, charging at an average of 50 kW, you are paying about 42-43 cents per kWh. With the highway-speed (75 mph ACC; 65 mph average) efficiency being 2.7 miles/kWh, this comes up to 15 cents per mile of highway driving.

The gas prices here are about $3.30 per gallon. Provided that a similar size SUV gets about 30 miles per gallon highway speeds, it comes out to 11 cents per mile. This is the real problem with using the ID.4 for road tripping. Not only does it add hours to a road trip daily, but it also costs over 1/3 more per mile to drive. The equation is, of course, completely opposite if you can charge the ID.4 at home and drive it around town only. In this case, driving the ID.4 costs about 1/3 per mile of what a similarly sized ICEV costs to drive per mile.

Interestingly enough, the variable price that the Tesla Supercharger bills per minute is lower than the fixed price billed by EA. Additionally, with the Model Y charging faster and the highway efficiency being better than that of the ID.4, it turns out about the same (or a little cheaper) to drive the Model Y at highway speeds than a similarly sized ICEV. But, generally, there is absolutely no benefit of driving an EV on a road trip cost-per-mile-wise or time-wise. The only reason to do this is environmental, which I don't personally buy.

The free 30-minute charging for 3 years on EA that the ID.4 gets is what makes all the difference right now for people (mostly retired people) to buy an ID.4 for taking it on road trips. Otherwise, in my opinion, the ID.4 is an excellent around-town family hauler, but it's not for road trips.

 

[Spin]

It doesn't just look a little less attractive. It looks plain unattractive. Here in the Southeast it costs 35-36 cents per minute (including tax) to charge at Electrify America. In the winter, charging at an average of 50 kW, you are paying about 42-43 cents per kWh. With the highway-speed (75 mph ACC; 65 mph average) efficiency being 2.7 miles/kWh, this comes up to 15 cents per mile of highway driving.

The gas prices here are about $3.30 per gallon. Provided that a similar size SUV gets about 30 miles per gallon highway speeds, it comes out to 11 cents per mile. This is the real problem with using the ID.4 for road tripping. Not only does it add hours to a road trip daily, but it also costs over 1/3 more per mile to drive. The equation is, of course, completely opposite if you can charge the ID.4 at home and drive it around town only. In this case, driving the ID.4 costs about 1/3 per mile of what a similarly sized ICEV costs to drive per mile.

Interestingly enough, the variable price that the Tesla Supercharger bills per minute is lower than the fixed price billed by EA. Additionally, with the Model Y charging faster and the highway efficiency being better than that of the ID.4, it turns out about the same (or a little cheaper) to drive the Model Y at highway speeds than a similarly sized ICEV. But, generally, there is absolutely no benefit of driving an EV on a road trip cost-per-mile-wise or time-wise. The only reason to do this is environmental, which I don't personally buy.

The free 30-minute charging for 3 years on EA that the ID.4 gets is what makes all the difference right now for people (mostly retired people) to buy an ID.4 for taking it on road trips. Otherwise, in my opinion, the ID.4 is an excellent around-town family hauler, but it's not for road trips.

To me, it's not only the cost, but the inconvenience. I originally bought this car to be a road trip car. After a 900 mile trip, I realized I wasn't willing to deal with it, even with free charging. I bought another car to road trip and my wife uses the ID.4 for her daily 70 mile RT commute. For that it is perfect and she loves it. I have said it many times on this forum but I will say it again, there aren't many things that I do right in this life but buying this car was one of them!

 

[knash]

Kyle is incredibly annoying. Honestly, how many videos can you watch of somebody standing around charging talking about nothing? With a big Starbuck sugary drink in his hand...

 

[Enzeder]

Until I got into the EV world, I had no idea of the variability of rates for electricity. I pay ~12¢/kW delivered so my cost per mile is low - even in winter. A "full tank" is less than $10. If I had to pay two or three times that much I might still be driving ICE. I'd certainly be looking at solar. My ID.4 is a daily driver. The free 30 min sessions only appealed as a bonus for the occasional road trip. If I were retired and primarily road tripping, I'd have looked elsewhere. While you can certainly road trip in the ID.4 (and I have), its combination of relatively slow charging and poor highway efficiency mean there are potentially better options if that's your primary use case.

 

[Daekwan]

I find there are alot of EV-assholes in the community. There is just something about new technology that makes certain people act like they above everyone else. As a Tesla owner & ID.4 owner.. its always amazing to me to witness the snobbery around the Tesla community. And while I've seen it from owners of other brands.. there is most certainly this better-than-thou attitude so many of the Tesla crowd has.

As for the actual issue. A charging spot is meant for just that.. charging. Especially so with DC fast chargers at the idea is really only to get enough juice to make it to your next destination. That said the 350kW stations should be reserved for vehicles that consistently charge over the 150kW rate of the other DCFC.. like the 800V systems in the Taycan, Ioniq5, EV6, etc. That said if all the 150kW spots are taken.. you are damn right I'm charging at the 350kW. Unless there are no other DCFC chargers located for over a 100 miles away.. there is really not much need to spend more than 30mins charging at any EA station. As we know it makes traveling significantly quicker to charge any from 0% to 80%.. then continue driving. Charging from 0% to 80%.. takes as long as charging from 80% to 100%. Why waste doubling the time charging to 100% unless its absolutely needed?

 

[Spongedart12]

To me, it's not only the cost, but the inconvenience. I originally bought this car to be a road trip car. After a 900 mile trip, I realized I wasn't willing to deal with it, even with free charging. I bought another car to road trip and my wife uses the ID.4 for her daily 70 mile RT commute. For that it is perfect and she loves it. I have said it many times on this forum but I will say it again, there aren't many things that I do right in this life but buying this car was one of them!

I feel like this is what early automobile adopters went through, not many stations, not good at long trips, etc, etc. I believe that at some point in the semi-near future, we will see some sort of two gear like system, where you can get better efficiency at high speeds. Maybe it will be hardware driven, maybe software driven. I feel the ID.4 driving experience is so good at highway speeds, smooth and soft enough to do long drives with and once we can get some more highway efficiency, it could become a serious go-to roadtripper.

 

[ericy]

Kyle also mentions that he encounters people with somewhat slower charging cars (ID.4 or Bolt) who insist that they need the 350 chargers because they think it will charge faster. I think in the long run, EA's plan is to make all chargers the same to eliminate this bit of stupidity.

 

[Erhard]

I don't think any member of the forum will take a 350kW if a 150kW is also available.
However, if a 350kW is the only one open when I am ready, I am taking it. Sue me.

So far i like this forum because the posters basically stick to the actual issues and remain friendly and respectful to each other. This is pretty rare these days.

 

[zilchp]

Stopped watching Kyle after he posted that "EVs are for Women" video then proceeded to speak over his wife and mother in-law the entire time correcting them about technical details no one cares about.

 

[Atlant]

I feel like this is what early automobile adopters went through, not many stations, not good at long trips, etc, etc. I believe that at some point in the semi-near future, we will see some sort of two gear like system, where you can get better efficiency at high speeds. Maybe it will be hardware driven, maybe software driven.

That's actually a pretty interesting suggestion. The Chevy Volt was based on just such a system where it had a 149 HP “A” motor and a 55 HP “B” motor. Up to about 70 MPH, propulsion is solely done by the A motor but that's the speed where, for both electrical and mechanical reasons, the A motor has reached its maximum RPM. Beyond 70 MPH, the B motor starts turning and a simple planetary gear system adds the rotation of these two motors together to get you to the 101 MPH maximum speed of the car. The B motor shaft can also be driven by the ICE in the Volt and when the car is running in that mode, the B motor acts as a generator and mechanical power from the ICE MAY be passed through the B motor directly to the planetary gear set. Finally, when this passing-through is going on, the A motor may rotate either forwards or backwards so as to speed or slow the output of the planetary gear set, giving the car the effect of having a torque-converting automatic transmission (almost like an infinitely-variable hydrostatic drive).

I understand that Priuses use a similar two-motor arrangement.

 

[Spin]

The EA 150 kW chargers I have encountered have been mostly 500A output although some have been only 350A.

I have also heard of, but have never seen, 150kW chargers as low as 150A. I am not an EE, but it is my understanding that charging an ID.4 at a 350kW charger that is 500A will be slightly faster than charging at a 150kW charger that is 350A, and way faster than charging at a 150kW charger that is 150A. Paging @Huey52 for comment.

 

[EricaD]

I’m definitely one of the people Kyle is talking about 😂. Middle aged mom with her first EV, not much of a tech person, I honestly don’t care about car tech beyond having the basics like CarPlay - I care way more about having a luxurious well built vehicle first and foremost. I bought my ‘23 ID.4 rather impulsively because I was tired of my Prius and my techie early Tesla adopting brother ironically sent me one of Kyle’s ID.4 videos, which convinced me to go drive one. I got hooked, found a dealer a couple hours away with the exact car I wanted available before the end of the year (tax credit) at MSRP, and later that day it was mine.

I immediately scheduled EVSE installation but needed to use EA to bridge the gap until my home L2 was set up. The car salesman did show me the very basics of EA charging before I drove the car home (135 mile drive from dealer, so I needed to charge up again within the next day or two), but I didn’t know anything about ChadEmo’s (is that a new Sesame Street character?) or 350 vs 150 or charging speed or any of the things.

So I just pulled into the very busy EA station and did my bumbling best and managed to get the car charged to 80% while probably getting lots of eye rolls from the Tesla/MachE/EV6 drivers around me. Since then, I’ve used EA a handful of times (most recently on a 500 Mi road trip) and each time I feel like I’m smarter and better at it, though I still have a lot to learn (but I do 95% of my charging at home anyway, so whatever).

Do I care that the OG EV and techie crowd thinks I’m some VW driving clueless newbie soccer mom who offends them with my EA ignorance? No, no I do not.

 

[Atlant]

I have also heard of, but have never seen, 150kW chargers as low as 150A. I am not an EE, but it is my understanding that charging an ID.4 at a 350kW charger that is 500A will be slightly faster than charging at a 150kW charger that is 350A, and way faster than charging at a 150kW charger that is 150A. Paging @Huey52 for comment.

Here's the power delivered for your three hypothetical values of currents assuming a bus voltage of 400 volts:

• 500A x 400V = 200 kW (beyond the capability of any ID.4)
  
  
• 350A x 400V = 140 kW
  
  
• 150 x 400V = 60 kW (typical ID.4 with a cool battery or high SoC)

 

[rbdavis808]

I think in the long run, EA's plan is to make all chargers the same to eliminate this bit of stupidity.

They damn well better -- with their recently implemented charge-speed branding scheme of Hyper, Ultra, Mega and Terrific-est, who could blame anyone for inadvertently pulling into the wrong stall?

 

[truthseeker]

Kyle is incredibly annoying. Honestly, how many videos can you watch of somebody standing around charging talking about nothing? With a big Starbuck sugary drink in his hand...

Here in the US, we are free not to watch Youtube videos we dislike. Is it not the same in Canada?

 

[NeverhadanEVbefore]

• 500A x 400V = 200 kW (beyond the capability of any ID.4)

Well ID.4 GTX:s on a low (sub 10 %) battery with software 3.0 and newer have been reported to pull 180kW temporarily. For example (well it's an ID.5 GTX, but same battery etc) here:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1549836388043894784

.

The ID.Buzz has been reported to pull 185kW.

So beyond, but not by much.

 

[eb2143]

Here's the power delivered for your three hypothetical values of currents assuming a bus voltage of 400 volts:

• 500A x 400V = 200 kW (beyond the capability of any ID.4)
  
  
• 350A x 400V = 140 kW
  
  
• 150 x 400V = 60 kW (typical ID.4 with a cool battery or high SoC)

Except the battery is never 400V except very near 100% SoC, so 360V is what I would use for typical start of charging session.