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Toyota makes a big announcement

9K views 153 replies 20 participants last post by  Nycturne 
#1 · (Edited)
Last man standing falls:

Toyota just announced that CEO Toyoda, 66, is stepping down. He will be replaced from April 1 by Koji Sato, 53, Toyota's chief branding and head of the premium brand Lexus.

Toyota said it "intends to implement changes to its executive structure effective April 1, 2023, and changes to its Board of Directors effective the date of its 119th Ordinary General Shareholders' Meeting."

Toyota makes a huge announcement

It is interesting, after Tesla price cuts its stock has gone up by 30%, while other automakers have been under pressure. It is clear that their EVs are not competitive with new Tesla cost structure reality.

Meanwhile VW is trying and failing to do a software update on 20,000 cars. Not an over the air update, in a dealership. Something that has been done with many cars in the past.
 
#2 ·
toyota is still stuck on the old boomer mentality.. they're just milking the ice market until california forces them to go full ev.. theyre not going to switch to ev anymore soon as more than half the world doesn't have the infrastructure to support it.. as for theit ev attempt, they're garbage.. bz4x platform is truely pathetic.
 
#15 ·
Whenever someone uses "Boomer" as a epithet or "Owns the Libs" I just shrug and write them off as a #### idiot not worthy of my attention. It is not a persuasive rhetorical device, youngster. BTW, I love my ancient 4Runner, approaching a quarter million miles on the odometer now. It has taken us to some incredible places.
 
#3 ·
@tacomambo Actually a lot of us who might be confused as the derogatory term “Boomers” actually have spent our lives driving fun to drive cars and riding motorcycles and racing. We were not all the ones who always buy slow Toyotas and Hondas and drive like a little old lady or clueless maniacs, much more of which you see today. Show some respect for the people that made America’s car culture or look completely clueless on the vehicle forums.

Sorry some people are too poor to drive or own sporty vehicles but believe you me we have kindly taken those folks on some rides…
 
#10 ·
As 100% GenX, I don't care... It isn't derogatory. Boomer's invented Participation Awards for their Millennial children. Get upset over that now.

However, ON TOPIC: I for one & glad Toyoda is stepping down. And I don't care, that you don't care... Toyoda's POV has been EV negative (historically) and personally, I wish him well in his retirement. I did enjoy my '94 $x2 Toyota pickup & put 375K miles on that lil red extra cab. And I did enjoy my 05' Sequoia Limited (before I knew better how much carbon I created over 275K miles, for which I will never amend or perform enough penance in my lifetime).
 
#14 ·
It’s too late for Toyota. Korean and Chinese Automakers are the next wave, even Vietnam joining in. Who buys Sony TVs anymore when LG, TCL and Samsung are selling off the shelf. I feel sorry for the hydrogen car buyers. Maybe they can mod with a battery somewhere and convert it to a full EV?
 
#16 ·
Toyota and VW are the most successful auto makers to date. Companies like Tesla will never reach that level of success as long as they only make EVs. And, "disrupters" are just that. They disrupt and are sometimes successful but most often, they die. We will see this with some newer "disrupting" EV makers.
 
#17 ·
My experience with Japanese companies is that their corporate culture is vastly different than what we expect in the US. There’s a bigger emphasis on flat out refusing to admit mistakes in public, respecting seniority, and saving face. Breaking ranks and leaking internal conflicts to the public is seen as a huge betrayal of trust as well. I’ve seen a statement from Japanese engineers flat out say an issue was “as designed” and quietly fix it in a software update less than a month later. This makes it hard to tell when/how a Japanese company will pivot one way or another.

So a couple things I take away from announcement here:

  • The CEO stepping down could very well have been part of holding the CEO to account for failures under his watch, and letting him step down and leave the company quietly later is allowing him to save face in this situation. But we’ll never really know for sure.
  • What this means for EVs is also up in the air. Without knowing why the CEO is leaving, it’s hard to know what the new CEO’s priorities are.

I do expect Toyota to pivot back into EVs with a more serious effort. The question is when. Because until they have the results of that effort ready to go into manufacturing, I fully expect they will continue to push the idea that their current lineup is fine, future-looking, and what people want.

This behavior of Japanese companies is actually why I bailed on Subaru for the ID.4. Precisely because I’m expecting a big internal mess hidden behind a well-rehearsed public story, and it’s really hard to say “I’m going to wait for the upcoming thing” or make long term plans when companies behave this way.
 
#19 ·
So a couple things I take away from announcement here:

--
Random facts: the Toyota EV of which name I refuse to learn to spell has gotten absolutely killed in reviews. Charging is a complete joke in sub-freezing temperatures despite advertised decent speeds. It gets hit bad by cold weather. AC charging limited and not standard 11kW. DCFC limited to two instances per 24 hours, after which DC charging limited to 50kW (which the car can maybe get to in the summer). The battery has no heating at all, meaning pre-heating is not possible even in the future. Systems monitoring the driver constantly ping even when turned off. Usable battery over 10kW less than advertised capacity; this was not made known when car was marketed. Using AC eats +30 miles of range the second you turn it on regardless of use. The list goes on. I mean it's so bad that local Toyota had to actually put out an FAQ to explain all this shit.

The CEO said not two weeks ago that EV:s are not the future, but merely a trend that will pass.

So while all competition is turning towards EVs, Toyota releases an EV that is pretty much worse than all the competition at the same pricepoint, followed by the CEO saying EVs ain't a thing.

The above are factually true. Whether they are connected to the CEO leaving his position - something no analyst was expecting, according to Bloomberg - is anyone's guess. I would also note that while someone might argue Toyoda's age - 66, if I recall - might be a reason, his successor is considered too young for such a position.. At 53.
 
#24 ·
@tacomambo I notice you don't type capital letters at the beginning of your sentences, and you are using single spaces between paragraphs. I recognize norms change, but I don't think formal communication is a hindrance to acceptance of the message. In fact, I'd say you are eliminating half of your audience from embracing your message simply by your style choices.
 
#28 · (Edited)
Personally, I'd be reluctant to compare the debacle that is the bz4x to the new EV's coming from GM. There's really not much out there that is as bad as the bz4x, wheels falling off and all.
Like VW, last decade GM started with a clean sheet, designing their new vehicles to be EVs from the very beginning.
From all appearances GM is miles ahead of Toyota in this regard, who seems not to even have left the EV starting line.

Most of us here took a chance on the first mass produced EV by Volkswagen. And (I think) most of us are happy we did, software issues aside.
In the same way, I'm trying to be optimistic regarding GM's upcoming new EV's.
 
#33 · (Edited)

Interesting article that fits with the main theme of this thread.

I'm actually concerned for Toyota once we start approaching the end of this decade. It's shocking how fast change happens when it does.....and it appears Toyota let themselves be caught out on the EV revolution. By the time they get their stuff in order (2027-2028), who knows whether it will be enough?
I have continually wondered what the heck was going on over there these past 4-5 years.
 
#34 ·

Interesting article that fits with the main theme of this thread.

I'm actually concerned for Toyota once we start approaching the end of this decade. It's shocking how fast change happens when it does.....and it appears Toyota let themselves be caught out on the EV revolution. By the time they get their stuff in order (2027-2028), who knows whether it will be enough?
I have continually wondered what the heck was going on over there these past 4-5 years.
Somehow, I'm reminded of the fable of the Tortoise and the Hare.

I'm not so sure that VW did itself any favors by rushing out its ill-will-generating series of poorly-planned and poorly-designed electric cars.
 
#39 ·
@Atlant

If history has shown us anything, it's how fast things can change. When things do change, it's usually faster and more furious than we could have ever imagined.
This lesson (and the skyrocketing rate of EV adoption) seems to have surprised the hell out of Toyota management. Hence the firing of its top guy.

If Toyota doesn't get its ducks in a row very, very quickly, it'll be toppled from that #1 automaker perch post haste.
 
#41 ·
I believe Toyota's assessment of the future for EVs is realistic. Yes they are late to EVs but their decades of successful, careful strategies cannot be denied.

 
#42 ·
I believe Toyota's assessment of the future for EVs is realistic. Yes they are late to EVs but their decades of successful, careful strategies cannot be denied.
Thanks you. I think that the people who are counting Toyota out for failing to rush to embrace EVs are reading both the market and Toyota incorrectly.

Here's a thought: Given the emergence of Green Hydrogen, we're on the verge of the ability to make pretty-green artificial liquid fuels. If that were to happen, the entire rush to BEVs might turn out to have been a pretty dumb idea.
 
#57 ·
I think even if you accept Toyota's argument, we are at a point where it makes sense to transition out of regular hybrids to PHEVs. Let's look at the numbers:

Tesla by itself makes about 1.8 million cars this year. They will use about 160 million kWh of batteries for those cars. That is more than what it takes to convert every NEW passenger car on the planet to a robust hybrid (1.5 kWh per car) and then some. And Tesla doesn't use more than 20 or 25 percent of automotive batteries.

So my conclusion is that we are beyond the point where regular hybrids would have been the best option, I think at this time for new car designs, PHEVs will be the most efficient use of batteries to reduce emissions.
 
#76 ·
I used to be more enamored with the potential of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. However thus far Toyota Mirai for one is having their own refueling issues (socket-plug freezing) as well as a general lack of supporting H infrastructure. And of course it uses some oxygen from the air mixed with the onboard hydrogen. But one day, just as early BEV's (and early ICE), greater reliability and support.
 
#88 ·
I think Toyotas statement that Lithium should be distributed across many Hybrid cars instead of comparably few full battery BEV's makes sense. This would help the environment and would make Lithium to last longer. Most daily needs can be achieved with the battery of a Hybrid.

Unfortunately people like me who want to get away from ICE only have the option to go full BEV at this point in time. In a few years there is maybe the Toyota version of a renewable Hydrogen + EV Hybrid. It might be the right choice to not abandon everything.
 
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#90 ·
I think Toyotas statement that Lithium should be distributed across many Hybrid cars instead of comparably few full battery BEV's makes sense. This would help the environment and would make Lithium to last longer. Most daily needs can be achieved with the battery of a Hybrid.

Unfortunately people like me who want to get away from ICE only have the option to go full BEV at this point in time. In a few years there is maybe the Toyota version of a renewable Hydrogen + EV Hybrid. It might be the right choice to not abandon everything.
I poste this a few pages ago. Just making an statement without numbers could be misleading.

Tesla by itself makes about 1.8 million cars this year. They will use about 160 million kWh of batteries for those cars. That is more than what it takes to convert every NEW passenger car on the planet to a robust hybrid (1.5 kWh per car, about 100 kWh total). And Tesla doesn't use more than 20 or 25 percent of automotive batteries.

Toyota wants to make whatever is more profitable for them. If they were genuine they would make many more PHEVs at least.
 
#98 ·
The guv could back off. Or the various devastating effects of climate change could be so obvious by 2035 that ICEs are outright banned.
 
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#101 ·
I have seen a blue Chevy EV Truck on the roads here in Riverside County, SoCal, several times. Plenty of Rivians and other EVs, but the Chevy EV truck seems to be local. They're gearing up for mass production. I would state categorically that no one here knows what that sales curve will look like. Right now demand is super high. We'll just have to see how many they will have to make in order to suppress that heavy demand.
 
#103 · (Edited)
You know, I'm reminded of Nokia and their Symbian S60 smartphones (or RIM and BlackBerry, if you prefer). EVERYBODY was convinced that their smartphones were the best and utterly unstoppable.

And then Steve Jobs convinced Apple to develop the iPhone and very rapidly, the whole world changed. Nowadays, the Finnish company named Nokia is no longer in the smartphone business at all; they sold the mobile phone trademark to a Chinese company. And RIM is essentially out of the mobile phone business as well.

Don't be so quick to count Toyota out and given how people feel about Toyota quality (versus, say VW ID.4 quality), if Toyota does move into EVs in a big way, they'll have a very large audience ready for them.
 
#107 ·
Predicting Toyota's downfall? Toyotas are reliable because they do not jump on new technology as quickly as other brands. They are cautious. Toyota is ( and will continue to be) a very successful company. The move to BEVs is in an early stage and the growth curve is, therefore, steep. The curve will eventually flatten as the BEV market penetration approaches the saturation level. What will that level be? I do not know but will not be 100%, not even close to 100%. Twenty years from now a very significant % ( 30%?, 50%?, 70%?) of ICE powered vehicles will be sold around the world. I think Toyota understands this much better than the folks on these forums, including me. Other companies feel compelled to state that they are going to go all electric in 10 years........not gonna happen.

By the way, how many of you are getting your Amazon packages delivered by drones? I didn't think so. Another gee wiz statement from Amazon similar to Tesla's self driving car claims.

Toyota is simply stating reality. Toyota will move to produce competitive BEVs in large numbers when it makes sense for them and them customers. They have lots of customers compared to Tesla and that will continue.
 
#108 · (Edited)
Predicting Toyota's downfall? Toyotas are reliable because they do not jump on new technology as quickly as other brands. They are cautious. Toyota is ( and will continue to be) a very successful company. The move to BEVs is in an early stage and the growth curve is, therefore, steep. The curve will eventually flatten as the BEV market penetration approaches the saturation level. What will that level be? I do not know but will not be 100%, not even close to 100%. Twenty years from now a very significant % ( 30%?, 50%?, 70%?) of ICE powered vehicles will be sold around the world. I think Toyota understands this much better than the folks on these forums, including me. Other companies feel compelled to state that they are going to go all electric in 10 years........not gonna happen.
I actually think there's a pretty good possibility that long-range BEVs are an idea whose time will soon have come and gone.

There's no doubt that BEVs that can be charged overnight make wonderful city cars and short-range commuter cars, but the more I think about the need to build-out the worldwide DCFC network to support long-distance travel in a BEV, the more I think people (and corporations) will simply say “Aww, f*ck it!” and decide that massive production of artifical liquid fuels using Green Hydrogen is a smarter game plan. After all, THAT 1) wouldn't require abandoning a century's worth of existing infrastructure, 2) wouldn't require redesigning every vehicle in the world's fleet of cars, trucks, and busses, 3) wouldn't require re-educating all the drivers in the world as to the quirks of BEVs, and 4 and most importantly) WOULD allow the energy majors to pretty-much keep doing what they've been doing with very little change so that the profits will keep rolling in.

(Also, this is the only way that airlines keep flying, intercontinental shipping keeps moving, and, in America, diesel-powered railroads keep running.)

One reason I believe that this is a realistic possibility is the fact that American Federal Government has recently taken quite a few steps towards subsidizing the hydrogen industry. See this opinion piece in yesterday's New York Times.

If this turns out to be the case, then Toyota's attitude of going slow on BEVs will look pretty darned smart.
 
#113 ·
Just about all of the technology Toyota uses today is on par or slightly behind other car companies by choice. Toyota is very conservative regarding the use of technology. This results in more reliable, if less exciting or less interesting, cars. This has not prevented them from being the most successful car company. When Toyota does decide to go big with BEVs, they will have access to the same technology everyone else is using at that time without having to go through all of the mistakes the other car companies go through. There are advantages to being first and, as Toyota continuously demonstrates, there are advantages to not being first.

Today, there is not much difference in batteries and motors used by different EV makers. Yes, some companies do not make all power available when initially starting from a stop (e.g. ID.4 and Audi Q4) so they are not as quick but this might enable the batteries and motors to last longer. The real difference is how the cars, themselves are built, how they handle, how they ride and how they are styled, etc. They are all using the same basic technology, just like ICE powered cars are using the same basic technology as the others. (actually there are more minor differences with ICEs such as OHC vs pushrods, turbo vs. non-turbo, MT vs AT etc.)
 
#114 ·
Just about all of the technology Toyota uses today is on par or slightly behind other car companies by choice. Toyota is very conservative regarding the use of technology. This results in more reliable, if less exciting or less interesting, cars. This has not prevented them from being the most successful car company. When Toyota does decide to go big with BEVs, they will have access to the same technology everyone else is using at that time without having to go through all of the mistakes the other car companies go through. There are advantages to being first and, as Toyota continuously demonstrates, there are advantages to not being first.

Today, there is not much difference in batteries and motors used by different EV makers. Yes, some companies do not make all power available when initially starting from a stop (e.g. ID.4 and Audi Q4) so they are not as quick but this might enable the batteries and motors to last longer. The real difference is how the cars, themselves are built, how they handle, how they ride and how they are styled, etc. They are all using the same basic technology, just like ICE powered cars are using the same basic technology as the others.
There is little overlap between EV and ICE drivetrain, so I don't think Toyota is anywhere near where it needs to be to make a competitive EV.

There are differences in technology, for example BYD LFP batteries, but the main difference is how the packs are assembled.

For example Tesla packs are assembled by robots, other companies use packs that are very labor intensive. Just look at Tesla and Ford Mach-e battery packs side by side and tell me they are using the same technology.




 
#125 ·
I think a Chinese company will eventually take over Toyota.

 
#134 ·
The EV market itself isn't large enough yet that I think you can rule Toyota out, but my suspicion is that they cannot afford another busy forks in 2026. They are on the back foot with BEVs at the moment, and their first BEV shows that they haven't been paying attention to the engineering lessons other companies have already learned and are acting on in the BEV space.

Now, if they stick the landing in 2026 and can start manufacturing that car in volume, I think they have decent odds. If not, I'd say things will change a lot more drastically.
 
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