Add Yours: VW ID. Buzz Owner's Registry

US ID.4 included EVSE charger

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DanM

Discussion Starter · Mar 13, 2021

I was able to snap a picture of the included Level 1 120 volt EV Cord Set at the dealership today.

I found https://www.aptiv.com/docs/default-source/user-manual/english-user-manual-ic-cpd.pdf, which appears to be the manual for this device. Although the US English specific labeling on the back says 60 Hz and 120 volts, the user manual says 50 or 60 Hz, and 100-240 volts, with a "depending on the model" caveat.

Once I get my ID.4, I'll take a closer look at this to see if it can be used as a 240 volt EVSE with an adapter. I think there is a good chance the components are the same worldwide and it is universal voltage.

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DanM

Discussion Starter · #61 · May 1, 2021

3

Nai3t said:
I'm with you though, why design for 120 when a universal design for 240 can be done for no added cost. I'm willing to sacrafice mine and have the necessary adapters, I'll test on Saturday.

Curiosity got the best of me, so I gave this a try tonight. Total success on 240 volts - no magic smoke!

Plugged into 120 volts:

Plugged into 240 volts:

Capturing some raw values from Car Scanner ELM OBD2, I was able to see that the battery pack was right around 380 volts for both tests. There was likely a bit of cabin heating going on at the time, as it was 55°F in my garage.

Charging from 120 VAC, I was seeing 2.3 amps DC flowing into the battery pack- this is around 875 watts of net power after some being diverted to heating.
Charging from 240 VAC, I was seeing 5.2 amps DC flowing into the battery pack- this is around 1975 watts of net power after some being diverted to heating.

⚠⚠⚠ Don't do ANY of this below unless you know exactly what you are doing. ⚠⚠⚠

To try this, I used a 6-20 outlet I have available. I made a unsafe adapter cord that should NOT be used for ANY OTHER PURPOSE besides plugging in an EV charger that is known to be dual voltage. Never ever leave something like this plugged in, as it provides 240 volts on a 5-15R, which is definitely out of line with expectations.

Here it is, green indicator light glowing, plugged into a 240 volt outlet. It was not yet plugged into the car, thus only one light lit.

A final note- the 5-15 plug on the included EVSE has two additional wires running through it to a thermistor that is embedded in the plug. So I would recommend against any modifications to that plug, such as cutting it off and replacing it.

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Nai3t

· #62 · May 1, 2021

Your wattage estimates seem correct but aren't your amperage figures low?

Edit: oh, I see what you've got there, disregard.

Marc LY

· #63 · May 8, 2021

DanM said:
In case anyone was curious, I opened up the US model included EVSE and took a look. While the specs are disappointing, the construction is not- this is a very weather resistant enclosure, and the cable entrances are well constructed and shouldn't be very susceptible to damage from yanking on the cord.
...
I started looking up some components to try and figure out if there is going to be any smoke and fireworks if I try this thing out at 240 volts, but haven't reached any conclusions just yet.
...

Hi!
Did you try to compare this US-Unit to the European Standard Volkswagen-Group 230 Volt (+ - 10 Volt) 10A EVSE? Did you try to take a look at the European "VW 1EA971675AB"?
10 Amp 230V are realy the standard for this type of charging (230 Volt Schuko-Plug) in Europe, also with the plug-in hybrids.

DanM

Discussion Starter · #64 · May 8, 2021

Marc LY said:
Hi!
Did you try to compare this US-Unit to the European Standard Volkswagen-Group 230 Volt (+ - 10 Volt) 10A EVSE? Did you try to take a look at the European "VW 1EA971675AB"?
10 Amp 230V are realy the standard for this type of charging (230 Volt Schuko-Plug) in Europe, also with the plug-in hybrids.

Looking at pictures of that model on an eBay listing, it looks identical to the US model as far as the charging housing goes. Obviously the plug (NEMA 5-15 vs Schuko) is different, as well as the Type 1 vs Type 2 end that plugs into the car, but the "guts" of the charger are likely exactly the same.

I suspected as such, as the generic user manual covers all the various plugs and connector options, and states an operating voltage range of 100 V to 240 V, as well as 50/60 Hz.

deftoner

· #65 · May 24, 2021

ExCivilian said:
One point of caution for people using 14-50 and 10-30 plugs is that they are not intended to be plugged/unplugged regularly. If you're going to use those travel ones at home then either buy another adapter for on the road or leave one plugged in and disconnect it at the EVSE end instead of the wall receptacle.

I also never used my dual use openEVSE charger but it was $300 bucks well spent insurance when we had an 86 mile range EV. I noticed some people were talking about going camping and you'd be able to plug them into a camp site, which was a common reason to buying these back in the day. We didn't have anywhere near the selection we have now. They were mostly homegrown back then, like mine, and I still prefer to support those open source projects.

Thats a little confusing, since the RVs are using 14-50 for years, and RV Parks has the same outlets since they open. So I'm pretty sure that they are ok to pug and unplug regularly, since I saw rv parks that are 30 years old with the same outlets where are connected and disconnected at least 3 times a week during those 30 years. And they are under the sun, and weather. So, yes. I bet that the 14-50 are ok to be normally plugged and unplugged.

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deftoner

· #66 · May 24, 2021

I found this post using google searching for ino about the stock charger of the new VW.
First of all.what most people call "charger" is actually just an external safely and power limiter unit, the"Charger" is inside the car.

Like 99% of the "external unit called charger" are capable of managing 240v. Is most cases also, is the exactly same unit that is sold in countries that are 220v.

The "external charger" will check ground, temperature (some even will check the plug temperature, like the stock charger from the new models of Volt and all Bolt and VW e-Golf).

Will communicate with the internal charger and limit the power to 4, 8 or 12 amps depending on model.

I been making adapters for stock charger for 5 years. the ONLY charger that wasn't capable to use 240 was the first Volt charger (the ugly with a handle on top) , dont remember specifically butit was something like the ground and neutral where in short, and they board had a secondary port to resolder the cable to make it 240v. They even had problems on house installation where the live was on the neutral side of the outlet.

A stock charger will charge at 12a in 240v since is the minimum that the internal charger will do at 240. Some chargers do 16a. At the end of the day, with a simple adapter and the stock charger you can charger 2 to 3 times faster, expending 60U$ without modifying anything in the house, just using a dryer outlet, or a furnace outlet (6-20).

I make these adapters, purchasing pars as a lot, selling them for the same price that purchasing the parts from home depot cost. I made so little on this, but I like to think that in a way, I'm helping to this petrol to electric car switching.

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Victor3576

· #67 · May 29, 2021

deftoner said:
I found this post using google searching for ino about the stock charger of the new VW.
First of all.what most people call "charger" is actually just an external safely and power limiter unit, the"Charger" is inside the car.

Like 99% of the "external unit called charger" are capable of managing 240v. Is most cases also, is the exactly same unit that is sold in countries that are 220v.

The "external charger" will check ground, temperature (some even will check the plug temperature, like the stock charger from the new models of Volt and all Bolt and VW e-Golf).

Will communicate with the internal charger and limit the power to 4, 8 or 12 amps depending on model.

I been making adapters for stock charger for 5 years. the ONLY charger that wasn't capable to use 240 was the first Volt charger (the ugly with a handle on top) , dont remember specifically butit was something like the ground and neutral where in short, and they board had a secondary port to resolder the cable to make it 240v. They even had problems on house installation where the live was on the neutral side of the outlet.

A stock charger will charge at 12a in 240v since is the minimum that the internal charger will do at 240. Some chargers do 16a. At the end of the day, with a simple adapter and the stock charger you can charger 2 to 3 times faster, expending 60U$ without modifying anything in the house, just using a dryer outlet, or a furnace outlet (6-20).

I make these adapters, purchasing pars as a lot, selling them for the same price that purchasing the parts from home depot cost. I made so little on this, but I like to think that in a way, I'm helping to this petrol to electric car switching.

Can you provide picture of a adapter for this id4 to connect to 14-50? How much shipped?

stowington

· #68 · May 31, 2021

I'm less than two weeks in and my L1 charger has given up already. It's got a solid red error light + blinking green house light. I've tried it in several outlets throughout our house but not elsewhere yet. Various computer UPS equipment isn't complaining, though, so I don't think it's an issue with the power coming out of the outlet. Looks like I'll be visiting the dealer again already.

Has this happened to anyone else?

DanM

Discussion Starter · #69 · May 31, 2021

Victor3576 said:
Can you provide picture of a adapter for this id4 to connect to 14-50? How much shipped?

If you do not know what you are doing, buy yourself an off the shelf EVSE that will work with a 14-50. These adapters are NOT safe to leave lying around for any purpose except plugging in a dual-voltage EVSE, and I've added a ton of labels to all of mine to indicate as such.

Here's the needed parts for an adapter for both a 14-50 ("range", "RV") and 14-30 ("new dryer") receptacle.

14-30 Dryer cord. Various examples:

5-15 connector. Various examples:

To build a cord that can be used on both a 14-30 and 14-50, you'll actually want to use a hacksaw to cut the neutral blade off, as the ground and hot blades are the same on both plugs. If you don't know which one is the neutral blade, I will repeat my warning- don't do this yourself.

Obviously you can do similar things with a 10-30 ("old dryer") cord, a 6-50 ("welder"), or a 6-15 / 6-20.

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ExCivilian

· #70 · Jun 1, 2021

stowington said:
Has this happened to anyone else?

Not to my knowledge, but when I went in to the dealership for my delayed charging issue they didn't test that and instead simply replaced my provided EVSE and said that was the issue (it wasn't, but begs the question of whether the provided EVSE was defective since I never used it; or they just replaced a working EVSE and called it good, which I wouldn't put it past them to do).

Nai3t

· #71 · Jun 1, 2021

Hey, they're using my time-tested approach to fixing the refrigerator and oven and such: replace the easiest / cheapest part first, then keep throwing time and money at it until it begins working again.

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Huey52

· #72 · Jun 1, 2021

Yep, dealership service dept's just love to throw parts at an issue rather than fully diagnosing same. It better suits their dealership-mothership business model, if not the customer. 😔

But as Nai3t, I've been guilty of same in some of my home maintenance. 🤷‍♂️

ExCivilian

· #73 · Jun 1, 2021

The loop I find frustrating is that I take a VW into the dealership, they don't listen to any diagnostics instead insisting they have to adhere to guided troubleshooting (which means they will ignore any observed symptoms and also erroneously refuse to dig into an issue when a fault code doesn't exist), send the vehicle out the door without resolution, VWoA insists they can't do anything other than assist upon request while vehicle has persisting issue.

Throwing parts at it would be an upgrade in my experience. I don't fault them for throwing a new part in there but I do fault them for not listening to us during check-in where they would have ruled that out as a cause.

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stowington

· #74 · Jun 3, 2021

stowington said:
Looks like I'll be visiting the dealer again already.

Huey52 said:
Yep, dealership service dept's just love to throw parts at an issue rather than fully diagnosing same. It better suits their dealership-mothership business model, if not the customer. 😔

Well, so far my dealer has't felt like throwing parts at the issue.

I walked in with the charger on Tuesday (we walk/bike for school dropoff every day and the dealer is on the way) and was told I would need to bring the car as well "to verify the problem" so brought it back this morning (Wednesday). I made sure to show the fault lights inside at the service desk this time, but the service rep still wanted to keep the car to test it. Fine.

About 1pm the Car-Net notifications told me it was plugged in (to their L2 charger), so at that point they had verified that the car can accept the charge, but no call saying I could pick it up - so I stopped in after school pickup in the afternoon. He asked to keep the car overnight. It sounded like he had asked VW America for next steps and wanted to have it available in case they said to run other diagnostics.

Around dinnertime Car-Net told me it reached 80% and cut off, so I guess at least I've gotten a free charge?

tennr

· #75 · Jun 3, 2021

NBCGLX said:
Some of the companies that offer L2 EVSE’s make portable versions. Technically, any plug-in version is portable. However, the cables are long and often very thick, and not very portable at all in my opinion, not to mention the bulk of the L2 EVSE in general. I’ve heard of this one, but have no experience with it nor have I read any first-person accounts of using it. It has lots of plug adapters available. I don’t think it can switch between 120v/240v, however.

https://www.amazon.com/MUSTART-Portable-Charger-Electric-Charging/dp/B077DC39J9

I use this Mustart as a backup. It auto switches voltage AND current depending on which extension is attached. Super simple to use.

stowington

· #76 · Jun 4, 2021

stowington said:
Well, so far my dealer has't felt like throwing parts at the issue.

I walked in with the charger on Tuesday (we walk/bike for school dropoff every day and the dealer is on the way) and was told I would need to bring the car as well "to verify the problem" so brought it back this morning (Wednesday). I made sure to show the fault lights inside at the service desk this time, but the service rep still wanted to keep the car to test it. Fine.

About 1pm the Car-Net notifications told me it was plugged in (to their L2 charger), so at that point they had verified that the car can accept the charge, but no call saying I could pick it up - so I stopped in after school pickup in the afternoon. He asked to keep the car overnight. It sounded like he had asked VW America for next steps and wanted to have it available in case they said to run other diagnostics.

Around dinnertime Car-Net told me it reached 80% and cut off, so I guess at least I've gotten a free charge?

Just to close this out: I got the car back this afternoon with a full battery and a new L1 charger in the trunk. Hopefully this one lasts longer than 2 weeks!

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thatbrian

· #77 · Jun 13, 2021

DanM said:
Curiosity got the best of me, so I gave this a try tonight. Total success on 240 volts - no magic smoke!

Plugged into 120 volts:
View attachment 3145

Plugged into 240 volts:
View attachment 3146

Capturing some raw values from Car Scanner ELM OBD2, I was able to see that the battery pack was right around 380 volts for both tests. There was likely a bit of cabin heating going on at the time, as it was 55°F in my garage.

Charging from 120 VAC, I was seeing 2.3 amps DC flowing into the battery pack- this is around 875 watts of net power after some being diverted to heating.

Charging from 240 VAC, I was seeing 5.2 amps DC flowing into the battery pack- this is around 1975 watts of net power after some being diverted to heating.

⚠⚠⚠ Don't do ANY of this below unless you know exactly what you are doing. ⚠⚠⚠

To try this, I used a 6-20 outlet I have available. I made a unsafe adapter cord that should NOT be used for ANY OTHER PURPOSE besides plugging in an EV charger that is known to be dual voltage. Never ever leave something like this plugged in, as it provides 240 volts on a 5-15R, which is definitely out of line with expectations.

Here it is, green indicator light glowing, plugged into a 240 volt outlet. It was not yet plugged into the car, thus only one light lit.

View attachment 3147

A final note- the 5-15 plug on the included EVSE has two additional wires running through it to a thermistor that is embedded in the plug. So I would recommend against any modifications to that plug, such as cutting it off and replacing it.

Are you plugged into a 15 or 20 amp 240 volt circuit? Is the VW cable rated for 15 or 20 amps?

Nai3t

· #78 · Jun 13, 2021

Brian, consider that when operating at 240 volts, the white wire that typically is the neutral in a 120 volt circuit gets repurposed as the second hot leg.

If I'm interpreting your thinking based on your questions in this and the other thread (and my apologies if I'm misinterpreting), you're rationalizing that at 240 volts it must be pulling 2x the amperage in order to charge 2x as quickly.

But only the voltage doubles. It's 120v @ 10A + 120v @ 10A coming in to the system. The voltage is additive because it's made of the difference in potential between two out-of-phase waves, but the amperage is not.

In fact, charging power is measured in watts, which is V x A. 240 volts x 10 amps is 2,400 watts, double the power you'd see at 120 volts (120x10). The circuit is protected by a tandem breaker that's comprised of two 15A breakers ganged together, no different from a single 15A breaker protecting a 120 volt circuit. .

For my dual voltage 16A EVSE I mentioned in the other thread, I connect using the same 12 gauge 20 amp-rated extension cord whether I'm plugged in to 120 or 240. It's just a standard (good quality) 120 volt extension cord modified with a 6-20R receptacle at one end, and the neutral becomes the 2nd hot when I plug in to 240.

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thatbrian

· #79 · Jun 13, 2021

Nai3t said:
Brian, consider that when operating at 240 volts, the white wire that typically is the neutral in a 120 volt circuit gets repurposed as the second hot leg.

If I'm interpreting your thinking based on your questions in this and the other thread (and my apologies if I'm misinterpreting), you're rationalizing that at 240 volts it must be pulling 2x the amperage in order to charge 2x as quickly.

But only the voltage doubles. It's 120v @ 10A + 120v @ 10A coming in to the system. The voltage is additive because it's made of the difference in potential between two out-of-phase waves, but the amperage is not.

In fact, charging power is measured in watts, which is V x A. 240 volts x 10 amps is 2,400 watts, double the power you'd see at 120 volts (120x10). The circuit is protected by a tandem breaker that's comprised of two 15A breakers ganged together, no different from a single 15A breaker protecting a 120 volt circuit. .

For my dual voltage 16A EVSE I mentioned in the other thread, I connect using the same 12 gauge 20 amp-rated extension cord whether I'm plugged in to 120 or 240. It's just a standard (good quality) 120 volt extension cord modified with a 6-20R receptacle at one end, and the neutral becomes the 2nd hot when I plug in to 240.

Thanks for the reply. I'm actually not assumed 2x amperage. I understand the difference between amps and volts. I also understand how 120 vs 240 works.

My question is regarding the rating of the VW-supplied equipment. If it can be connected (plugged in) to a 20 amp 240 volt circuit, rather than a 15 amp 240 volt circuit, would it feed the car more juice? More importantly, is the device rated for 20 amps or 15?

Later this morning I'll look at it and answer my own question, but I couldn't do that last night as my wife was sleeping and opening the garage door triggers a beep from my alarm system.

Huey52

· #80 · Jun 13, 2021

In case anyone was wondering, although somewhat unconventional, Nai3T is using "ground return" on his 240V 12-2 fabricated extension cord. A 10-3 is of course more common and arguably safer but he's purposely not pulling many amps. Neutral and ground buses are bonded within the panel.
Keep in mind that Euro voltage is 240V right out of the 'tap.'

Light Product Circuit component Rectangle Line

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