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ID.4 Pro S Moonstone Grey
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VW announced MEB platform will be able to return power to grid (or home). Hope there will be a retrofit kit for 2021 ID.4 users, but unlikely.

"The test vehicles are running, we are in the last pulls with the preparations," confirms VW Development Board Member Thomas Ulbrich in an interview with the Handelsblatt. From 2022 onwards, every electric car from the Volkswagen Group that is developed on the basis of the MEB (“modular electrification kit”) electrical platform can not only charge the electricity but also return it to the grid. In addition to VW, the MEB is also used by the sister brands Audi , Skoda and Seat-Cupra.

The first generation of MEB models, which Volkswagen has been delivering since autumn last year, is not yet designed to be bidirectional. These cars can only charge. Volkswagen retrofits with comparatively few technical changes and additional software.

 

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Hi All, This is my first input on the ID Forum. I am writing because the possibility of bi-directional charging on the ID.4 has me really excited. I have a AWD on order and just maybe by the time it is shipped it may have this feature. I don't have to consider the Ioniq5 instead of the VW to get bi-directional charging. Why am I so interested in this - you may ask. Well maybe I don't have to consider an expensive Generac system to keep my well pump running, or house heated or refrigeration on when the power goes out. I don't need to power up the whole house, just one or two essentials for a limited time. What a great convenience to have water during a power outage.
Also, another terrific benefit is if either my wife or I run out of power on the open road with one of our EVs (sometime in the future, we don't have an EV yet) the second car could run to the rescue of the "stalled" car - no calling on the flat bed!
Even if my ordered car is available before bi-directional is featured I'm willing to put off delivery until it becomes a standard feature, assuming that is not way off in the future. I believe this will eventually become a standard for all EVs - it makes so much sense.
 

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One thing that I think will go away with bi-directional charging is free charging at EA.
 

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Hi All, This is my first input on the ID Forum. I am writing because the possibility of bi-directional charging on the ID.4 has me really excited. I have a AWD on order and just maybe by the time it is shipped it may have this feature. I don't have to consider the Ioniq5 instead of the VW to get bi-directional charging. Why am I so interested in this - you may ask. Well maybe I don't have to consider an expensive Generac system to keep my well pump running, or house heated or refrigeration on when the power goes out. I don't need to power up the whole house, just one or two essentials for a limited time. What a great convenience to have water during a power outage.
Also, another terrific benefit is if either my wife or I run out of power on the open road with one of our EVs (sometime in the future, we don't have an EV yet) the second car could run to the rescue of the "stalled" car - no calling on the flat bed!
Even if my ordered car is available before bi-directional is featured I'm willing to put off delivery until it becomes a standard feature, assuming that is not way off in the future. I believe this will eventually become a standard for all EVs - it makes so much sense.
I would love it if the AWD version would have this, but am highly skeptical. I am also skeptical that the AWD will be 2022 models, but, again, would love to wrong about that too. Fingers crossed.
 

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I would love it if the AWD version would have this, but am highly skeptical. I am also skeptical that the AWD will be 2022 models, but, again, would love to wrong about that too. Fingers crossed.
You are right to be skeptical about the first AWD’s being 2022 models. I asked VW Corporate a couple of days ago if they would be 2022’s and they said that they would not be. We’ll be getting 2021’s.
 

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2021 1st
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One thing that I think will go away with bi-directional charging is free charging at EA.
I was thinking how hilarious it was going to be reading about people driving back and forth between chargers and homes filling up their home batteries.
You are right to be skeptical about the first AWD’s being 2022 models. I asked VW Corporate a couple of days ago if they would be 2022’s and they said that they would not be. We’ll be getting 2021’s.
When I ordered my AWD it had a delivery window between Oct-Dec. I would not be surprised if the AWDs aren't delivered until 2022 even though I agree they'll be 2021s.

Don't be surprised to see tremendous pushback from utility companies.
 

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Have they actually specified that bi-directional charging is for applying power to your house? The only references I've seen to it from other manufacturers are to charge other vehicles, or at least use the car as a big inverter. Note, that this would require the onboard charger to be bi-directional. Remember, that the "charger" you have on your wall of your garage isn't a charger -- its just some relays controlling the flow of AC power into the car -- the charger lives in the car. So if you want AC power to come out of the car, this AC->DC converter (charger) needs to be bidrectional. That's likely a new part, not a software upgrade.

Note that bi-directional charging on things like phones is the same way. You can charge another phone or your headphones from your phone, but the AC->DC converter that plugs into the wall isn't bidirectional.

There are actually really important safety considerations for this. Most solar inverters are grid-tie -- in other words, they require power to be present in the house before they will supply power (and then they also align their phase to the grid). This is a safety feature. If the power is out and you apply power to the electrical system in your house, you will not only energize your house, but you will attempt to energize your neighbors too. Whole house generators require a transfer switch to disconnect from the grid in order to power your own house.

Not to say it isn't possible, but just don't think you can get a software update to your car and use it to power your house in the event of a power failure.

I suppose you could dump your car into your house while the grid was connected, but even at .20/kWh, you're talking about $15 of electricity... over 8 hours.. and then you have to go drive your car to an EA charger and sit there for 45 minutes. Doesn't really seem worth it.
 

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Supposedly Tesla chargers are already built for this, but you're right that current EVSEs are unlikely to have the hardware or protections. When I wrote "significant push back" from utility companies I was only alluding to the tip of the iceberg.

In CA, for example, installing solar panels required code compliance with the local utils, the state, and the fire dept. all of whom had different ideas about what they needed for the system to be deemed "safe" and resulted in some really stupid redundancies. The inverter itself was capable of commercial net metering but the utility company demanded its own, it also had an add-on hardware shut-off, but the utility co. demand its own, and then the fire dept. demanded its own, too! By the end of it all, the whole thing looked ridiculous, ugly, and less safe to my eyes.

By the time the new NEM rules came out, we were getting 3c back for every kw generated based on their claims they should only pay energy "producers" at wholesale pricing. It's clear to me that the only direction that pricing will go is down as the old promises of "banking" energy faded away anyone who over-produced needed to invest in batteries.

I wouldn't sub in my $50K vehicle for a $6K battery, but that's just me :) It's fun to think about all the new ways we can use our tech but it's my opinion that if someone needs to run a well pump then a 12v lead-acid battery or emergency generator already does that well enough for now. We don't have the infrastructure, scale, or political landscape to make V2G or V2H anything more than a novelty in the US in the immediate future, which is why I think those quotes aren't likely talking about US vehicles.
 

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Have they actually specified that bi-directional charging is for applying power to your house? The only references I've seen to it from other manufacturers are to charge other vehicles, or at least use the car as a big inverter. Note, that this would require the onboard charger to be bi-directional. Remember, that the "charger" you have on your wall of your garage isn't a charger -- its just some relays controlling the flow of AC power into the car -- the charger lives in the car. So if you want AC power to come out of the car, this AC->DC converter (charger) needs to be bidrectional. That's likely a new part, not a software upgrade.

There are actually really important safety considerations for this. Most solar inverters are grid-tie -- in other words, they require power to be present in the house before they will supply power (and then they also align their phase to the grid). This is a safety feature. If the power is out and you apply power to the electrical system in your house, you will not only energize your house, but you will attempt to energize your neighbors too. Whole house generators require a transfer switch to disconnect from the grid in order to power your own house.

Not to say it isn't possible, but just don't think you can get a software update to your car and use it to power your house in the event of a power failure.
Yes its a new part, a large wallbox, and they said its to charge your car at 22kw DC, or power your house or sell back to grid, see:
Volkswagen Launches DC Wallbox Pilot Project In Germany
It includes the important safety considerations you mention, just like grid tied solar inverters. I agree it will not be available as just a software upgrade since its a large, heavy hang on the wall type of device that will be hard wired into your main panel, since it puts out 22kw which is around 90 amps at 240v. And yes it needs a simple yet expensive transfer switch if you want to run your house and not feed back into the grid, same as with current solar inverters like I have on my house.

Edit: Here is more info from Audi working on something similar:
Audi Is Researching Bidirectional Home Charging Technology

Note those of us who already have a grid tied solar system have those safety devices and approvals to sell back to the grid. The power company cannot tell whether the power I sell them back came from my solar system or the new 22kw inverter hooked to my ID.4 The changes to the car could be minimal since it all happens through the CCS charging port.

A few key points I have not seen mentioned: Can it do both 120 and 240v like we use in the US? Can it still work when the grid goes down? (some solar inverters can, and some cannot, and thats important if you want to use it as backup power for our increasingly unreliable grid power.) Edit: I answered my own question by watching the Audi link above, where they say it works without grid power and for emergency power, but says your house needs to have its own battery bank too, not just the car.
 

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There are actually really important safety considerations for this. Most solar inverters are grid-tie -- in other words, they require power to be present in the house before they will supply power (and then they also align their phase to the grid). This is a safety feature. If the power is out and you apply power to the electrical system in your house, you will not only energize your house, but you will attempt to energize your neighbors too. Whole house generators require a transfer switch to disconnect from the grid in order to power your own house.
I had speculated about a much more limited use-cases - extract just enough juice to run the fridge and keep the internet router up. If you have gas heat, you might want to try and run the furnace blower. But honestly for climate, it might just be more efficient to sit in the car.

Some people have wondered about getting a 1500W pure sine-wave inverter, and attaching it to the 12V battery in the car. That gives you a few outlets that you can work with.
 

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Some people have wondered about getting a 1500W pure sine-wave inverter, and attaching it to the 12V battery in the car. That gives you a few outlets that you can work with.
Yes this works great, they don't cost much now (<$60), and I did this exact thing with my truck which has 2 large batteries during the wildfires last year when my grid power was shut off for 2 weeks. I added a few solar panels to charge the truck batteries and it was much nicer than running a noisy backup generator which I also have.
 
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Have they actually specified that bi-directional charging is for applying power to your house? The only references I've seen to it from other manufacturers are to charge other vehicles, or at least use the car as a big inverter. Note, that this would require the onboard charger to be bi-directional. Remember, that the "charger" you have on your wall of your garage isn't a charger -- its just some relays controlling the flow of AC power into the car -- the charger lives in the car. So if you want AC power to come out of the car, this AC->DC converter (charger) needs to be bidrectional. That's likely a new part, not a software upgrade.

Note that bi-directional charging on things like phones is the same way. You can charge another phone or your headphones from your phone, but the AC->DC converter that plugs into the wall isn't bidirectional.

There are actually really important safety considerations for this. Most solar inverters are grid-tie -- in other words, they require power to be present in the house before they will supply power (and then they also align their phase to the grid). This is a safety feature. If the power is out and you apply power to the electrical system in your house, you will not only energize your house, but you will attempt to energize your neighbors too. Whole house generators require a transfer switch to disconnect from the grid in order to power your own house.

Not to say it isn't possible, but just don't think you can get a software update to your car and use it to power your house in the event of a power failure.

I suppose you could dump your car into your house while the grid was connected, but even at .20/kWh, you're talking about $15 of electricity... over 8 hours.. and then you have to go drive your car to an EA charger and sit there for 45 minutes. Doesn't really seem worth it.
Hi.
I'm new here and maybe should keep my mouth shut, but I don't think you understand what we want to do with Bi-Directional charging. I have absolutely no interest in back feeding the grid. None. Zero.
I have a SolarEdge inverter. It produced 29kw today. It is set up to accommodate an LG Chem 10kw battery which I have not purchased yet. During a blackout, the LG battery can provide power to 4 circuits that I have in a sub panel. The inverter is smart enough to shut off all power to my main panel. No electricity will go from my inverter, my solar panels or my battery, to the grid. None. Zero. But power can flow to the sub panel.
Power will flow from the LG 10kw battery to my refer, furnace, sump pump, router and a few lights. 25amp of 220v in all.
Now instead of buying an LG Chem 10kw battery for $5,200, I would rather use the 80kw battery from a VW ID4 (which I haven't bought yet either). When you open the "gas cap" I can see DC- and DC+. I asked the person in the showroom how many volts and what is the potential of that connection and he didn't have a clue about what I was asking.
I looked on the VW website, but that was useless.
In the SolarEdge inverter there is a place labeled 500v DC 40 amps.
I think it would be pretty simple for an electrical engineer to come up with a way to charge my car from the SolarEdge inverter and allow my car to supply power to my inverter when it is off the grid.
Until then, I will not buy an electric car. Simple as that.
 

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The person you're responding to understands what you're trying to accomplish. All those safety fallbacks are required by code and state regulations along with local fire regs. That said, Musk himself is the one promoting grid tying everyone's Tesla into the power grid. There are a lot of conversations about it and developments mostly overseas if you'd like to look it up.

I don't understand this obsession with using one's $50K vehicle as a battery substitute rather than a replaceable $5-8K home battery. It seems like a solution in search of a problem and trading a lot of downsides for the sake of making it work; not because it's difficult, but because it's expensive to replace the vehicle batteries so there's not a whole lot of reason to exert this wear and tear on them unnecessarily. It's false economy to forgo buying a $5K battery because you can use your $20K+ battery pack from your car instead...and it needs to be plugged in for this to work anyway whereas the purpose built battery is always on.
 

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Have they actually specified that bi-directional charging is for applying power to your house? The only references I've seen to it from other manufacturers are to charge other vehicles, or at least use the car as a big inverter. Note, that this would require the onboard charger to be bi-directional. Remember, that the "charger" you have on your wall of your garage isn't a charger -- its just some relays controlling the flow of AC power into the car -- the charger lives in the car. So if you want AC power to come out of the car, this AC->DC converter (charger) needs to be bidrectional. That's likely a new part, not a software upgrade.

Note that bi-directional charging on things like phones is the same way. You can charge another phone or your headphones from your phone, but the AC->DC converter that plugs into the wall isn't bidirectional.

There are actually really important safety considerations for this. Most solar inverters are grid-tie -- in other words, they require power to be present in the house before they will supply power (and then they also align their phase to the grid). This is a safety feature. If the power is out and you apply power to the electrical system in your house, you will not only energize your house, but you will attempt to energize your neighbors too. Whole house generators require a transfer switch to disconnect from the grid in order to power your own house.

Not to say it isn't possible, but just don't think you can get a software update to your car and use it to power your house in the event of a power failure.

I suppose you could dump your car into your house while the grid was connected, but even at .20/kWh, you're talking about $15 of electricity... over 8 hours.. and then you have to go drive your car to an EA charger and sit there for 45 minutes. Doesn't really seem worth it.
Remember, the electric motor in the ID4 is AC. So it is not a leap of taking some of that AC power to an household outlet!
 

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The person you're responding to understands what you're trying to accomplish. All those safety fallbacks are required by code and state regulations along with local fire regs. That said, Musk himself is the one promoting grid tying everyone's Tesla into the power grid. There are a lot of conversations about it and developments mostly overseas if you'd like to look it up.

I don't understand this obsession with using one's $50K vehicle as a battery substitute rather than a replaceable $5-8K home battery. It seems like a solution in search of a problem and trading a lot of downsides for the sake of making it work; not because it's difficult, but because it's expensive to replace the vehicle batteries so there's not a whole lot of reason to exert this wear and tear on them unnecessarily. It's false economy to forgo buying a $5K battery because you can use your $20K+ battery pack from your car instead...and it needs to be plugged in for this to work anyway whereas the purpose built battery is always on.
Hi ExCivilian
The power goes out about once a year for a day. It has gone out for three days at a time three times in the last ten or fifteen years. These are the only times I would use the car battery.
I have a small Honda 2500 watt generator that I can use in an emergency, but as I get older, I want something automatic.
A Generac whole house automatic is the choice around here, but they are noisy and fuel hogs. Plus I'm sure there is some maintenance involved and they must wear out.
I'm glad that you think $5,000 is cheap. It isn't for me.
I'm not looking to live off the grid. I just need to tap into that $20,000 car battery once a year.
I don't think that it will cost VW all that much to accommodate people like me. I think it would be a huge selling feature.
 

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Hey MJSFJP - you are right on the money, well said. It is not something that would be used frequently, just when really needed. I looked into Generac type units, quite a few of my neighbors have them. By the time you have added a propane tank to run them and dug the trench from tank to generator you are pushing $10,000 for complete install. And they have to be run once every month year round just for maintenance. And they are not quiet even though they are enclosed. I looked into portable Honda type generators. They would need to be kept in my garage and rolled out (probably 10 degrees and a foot of snow outside at the time) before starting. The are very heavy, noisy and generate exhaust. My wife won't have it and neighbors might not be too happy when it is running. The EV backup idea is a totally livable solution. If the Ionic 5 can get close to this I bet VW will have a safe, workable feature.
If you have lived through power outages that go for more than a couple of hours you know that keeping gallons of water on hand, not for drinking but for flushing and washing, because the well pump can't run, gets old real quick. Not to mention heat and refrigeration.
 

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I currently have a 12kw solar array and a 10kw battery installed on my house. On a cloudless or mostly cloudless day I make nearly 80kWh. I would absolutely love to be able to add the 77 well realistically 60-70kw as another source. I all ready have been considering adding additional battery storage to be able to run my entire house in the event of power outage. I’m with everyone who said generators are a maintenance and noise nuisance. That is why I went with the battery when installing solar even though my solar rep tried to talk me out of it. No fuss no muss. My fridge, microwave and all my lights and ceiling fans in the house will work. If the C2G worked I could run the AC, cooktop and oven as needed. Also as an aside the battery is under the 26% tax credit reducing its overall cost.
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