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Hey MJSFJP - you are right on the money, well said. It is not something that would be used frequently, just when really needed. I looked into Generac type units, quite a few of my neighbors have them. By the time you have added a propane tank to run them and dug the trench from tank to generator you are pushing $10,000 for complete install. And they have to be run once every month year round just for maintenance. And they are not quiet even though they are enclosed. I looked into portable Honda type generators. They would need to be kept in my garage and rolled out (probably 10 degrees and a foot of snow outside at the time) before starting. The are very heavy, noisy and generate exhaust. My wife won't have it and neighbors might not be too happy when it is running. The EV backup idea is a totally livable solution. If the Ionic 5 can get close to this I bet VW will have a safe, workable feature.
If you have lived through power outages that go for more than a couple of hours you know that keeping gallons of water on hand, not for drinking but for flushing and washing, because the well pump can't run, gets old real quick. Not to mention heat and refrigeration.
I never said $5k was cheap—nice straw man.
I'm sorry. Did I insult you? I certainly didn't mean to. I apologize.
Mike
 

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I asked the person in the showroom how many volts
The ID.4 battery is between 300 to 400 volts depending on SOC.
think it would be pretty simple for an electrical engineer to come up with a way to charge my car from the SolarEdge inverter and allow my car to supply power to my inverter when it is off the grid.
VW is doing something like this, but only with the 22kw inverter/charger that they will sell next year, described in my link above. I expect other cars to be like this also, where if you use some other brand of large inverter or a solar system with unknown charge regulation hardware connected direct to the battery they void the car battery warranty. This makes sense because they have their own carefully designed battery management system for both charge and discharge that you cannot just bypass.

From the above Audi research:
there is no need for a separate PV inverter. Everything (EV, PV, and ESS) is connected to the DC wallbox, which then connects to the home's electric installation. "What sounds simple in theory requires a high level of technical intelligence and coordinated interaction between different technical components in terms of infrastructure and in the vehicle in practice."
 

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Remember, the electric motor in the ID4 is AC. So it is not a leap of taking some of that AC power to an household outlet!
No.
First of all, I'm pretty sure VW has said that the motor in the ID4 is a Permanent Magnet motor. It is, almost certainly a Brushless DC motor. Yes, you (tend to) feed the (usually three) phases of a brushless motor a "sine wave", but that does NOT make it an "AC motor". Furthermore, these sine waves are generated by the motor controller (sometimes called an "inverter", but not to be confused with the kind that powers outlets). The frequency of these sine waves tends to be in the tens of kHz, and frequently they use some spread spectruming to help with the audible noise. Also, the battery in the ID4 is probably ~400V DC, and you wouldn't want to power your house with that. Lastly, there is no way VW is adding some sort of plug onto the output of the motor controller to pull power off of.
So, wrong frequency, wrong voltage, wrong source.
 

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No.
First of all, I'm pretty sure VW has said that the motor in the ID4 is a Permanent Magnet motor. It is, almost certainly a Brushless DC motor. Yes, you (tend to) feed the (usually three) phases of a brushless motor a "sine wave", but that does NOT make it an "AC motor". Furthermore, these sine waves are generated by the motor controller (sometimes called an "inverter", but not to be confused with the kind that powers outlets). The frequency of these sine waves tends to be in the tens of kHz, and frequently they use some spread spectruming to help with the audible noise. Also, the battery in the ID4 is probably ~400V DC, and you wouldn't want to power your house with that. Lastly, there is no way VW is adding some sort of plug onto the output of the motor controller to pull power off of.
So, wrong frequency, wrong voltage, wrong source.
And I am hoping that there is a young hot shot MIT grad out there saying "Oh yeah? Watch me!"
 

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No.
First of all, I'm pretty sure VW has said that the motor in the ID4 is a Permanent Magnet motor. It is, almost certainly a Brushless DC motor. Yes, you (tend to) feed the (usually three) phases of a brushless motor a "sine wave", but that does NOT make it an "AC motor". Furthermore, these sine waves are generated by the motor controller (sometimes called an "inverter", but not to be confused with the kind that powers outlets). The frequency of these sine waves tends to be in the tens of kHz, and frequently they use some spread spectruming to help with the audible noise. Also, the battery in the ID4 is probably ~400V DC, and you wouldn't want to power your house with that. Lastly, there is no way VW is adding some sort of plug onto the output of the motor controller to pull power off of.
So, wrong frequency, wrong voltage, wrong source.
Plus, I don't want to run a supply from the motor controller. I want to run it to and from the 400vdc battery. The LG Chem is 400vdc. I don't think I am asking too much
 

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Plus, I don't want to run a supply from the motor controller. I want to run it to and from the 400vdc battery. The LG Chem is 400vdc. I don't think I am asking too much
Yes.. wasn't replying to you. As I quoted, I was replying to the person who said that the motor was "AC" so why not just use that.
 

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Yes.. wasn't replying to you. As I quoted, I was replying to the person who said that the motor was "AC" so why not just use that.
Got it. Thank you.
I was talking to a guy a few weeks ago and I realized that I don't know anything about these new motors. Take apart a Milwaukee cordless drill. There are microchips in the battery! I could understand the old DC motors with brushes but this new stuff is pure magic.
 

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Plus, I don't want to run a supply from the motor controller. I want to run it to and from the 400vdc battery. The LG Chem is 400vdc. I don't think I am asking too much
I have idly wondered the same, but I don't see a way to get to the battery without bypassing the BMS.

Our solar system is also SolarEdge, and I have seen ~400VDC being reported by the inverter. Note that a micro inverter system won't have this.
 

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First of all, I'm pretty sure VW has said that the motor in the ID4 is a Permanent Magnet motor. It is, almost certainly a Brushless DC motor. Yes, you (tend to) feed the (usually three) phases of a brushless motor a "sine wave", but that does NOT make it an "AC motor".
Better let Volkswagen know, then. From the March 2021 press release:

2553

and from the September 2020 press release:
2554
 

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Better let Volkswagen know, then. From the March 2021 press release:

View attachment 2553
and from the September 2020 press release: View attachment 2554
It's an interesting thing...they're sometimes called the same thing by people and then there's a longer explanation of their (subtle) differences: https://www.edn.com/permanent-magnet-motors-are-pmsms-the-same-as-bldcs/
I stand by what I said. In the industry, these terms are used interchangeably (except that BLDC is far more common). No one drives high power BLDC motors with trapezoids, and I have seen both internal and external rotor motors called BLDC.

But the important point is that a PMSM is NOT an "AC motor" like you find in your vacuum and doesn't run on 120/240V 60 Hz AC and thus this "AC" has nothing to do with powering anything in your home.
 

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I stand by what I said. In the industry, these terms are used interchangeably (except that BLDC is far more common). No one drives high power BLDC motors with trapezoids, and I have seen both internal and external rotor motors called BLDC.

But the important point is that a PMSM is NOT an "AC motor" like you find in your vacuum and doesn't run on 120/240V 60 Hz AC and thus this "AC" has nothing to do with powering anything in your home.
You would take the stored DC power put into your all ready existing solar inverters or a separate inverter if you don't have or want solar and change it to the required AC current to power the house. Just the same as any back up battery, Powerwall etc. I haven't seen anyone make the claim they want the AC current the motor is using to directly power their house. Also the motor runs at 9-10 Hz not tens of kHz.
 

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You would take the stored DC power put into your all ready existing solar inverters or a separate inverter if you don't have or want solar and change it to the required AC current to power the house. Just the same as any back up battery, Powerwall etc.
Yes... that's exactly what I said in my original post. The power needs to be pulled from the DC battery.

I haven't seen anyone make the claim they want the AC current the motor is using to directly power their house.
That's exactly what someone was claiming and what I was responding to:
Remember, the electric motor in the ID4 is AC. So it is not a leap of taking some of that AC power to an household outlet!
Also the motor runs at 9-10 Hz not tens of kHz.
Yes, you're right, I was mixing the switching frequency and the carrier frequency. The carrier frequency might be that low (thought at still seems very low to me), but the switching frequency will be much higher.
 

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Yes... that's exactly what I said in my original post. The power needs to be pulled from the DC battery.


That's exactly what someone was claiming and what I was responding to:



Yes, you're right, I was mixing the switching frequency and the carrier frequency. The carrier frequency might be that low (thought at still seems very low to me), but the switching frequency will be much higher.
Ha missed that yes that wouldn't work. Seems were on the same page :)
 

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Here is a new option for bi-directional charging that is very similar to VW's system, but its available now for pre-order at $6649, does both DCFC or L2 charge, has 15kw inverter, 20kw of solar input MPPT, and replaces your solar inverter, does emergency backup with and without a home battery, and can charge 2 cars:
DCbel charger, inverter, backup power
It will be interesting to see what the price is on VW's unit, since this one is so similar. One thing I don't like is they charge $7 a month for their app. It does DCFC charge at 3x faster than L2, getting 60mi/h of range. Unlike the VW unit, this one has all the specs and pricing available right now, and it looks good but expensive (and I expect the VW 22kw unit to be expensive.) It looks to me there will be many options like this coming up in the next year.

It says Fast charging capabilities for all major EV models so it should already work as a charger with our ID.4, and I wonder what it takes on the cars side to be bi-directional? (they don't mention which cars can act as backup power.)
 
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