Volkswagen ID Forum banner
41 - 60 of 77 Posts

·
Registered User
Joined
·
137 Posts
Here is a new option for bi-directional charging that is very similar to VW's system, but its available now for pre-order at $6649, does both DCFC or L2 charge, has 15kw inverter, 20kw of solar input MPPT, and replaces your solar inverter, does emergency backup with and without a home battery, and can charge 2 cars:
DCbel charger, inverter, backup power
It will be interesting to see what the price is on VW's unit, since this one is so similar. One thing I don't like is they charge $7 a month for their app. It does DCFC charge at 3x faster than L2, getting 60mi/h of range. Unlike the VW unit, this one has all the specs and pricing available right now, and it looks good but expensive (and I expect the VW 22kw unit to be expensive.) It looks to me there will be many options like this coming up in the next year.
Very promising really like this. I wonder how this works when the solar inverters are the micro versions that are installed under each panel.

Edit: added my name to the reserve list for funnsies
 

·
Registered User
Joined
·
17 Posts
Here is a new option for bi-directional charging that is very similar to VW's system, but its available now for pre-order at $6649, does both DCFC or L2 charge, has 15kw inverter, 20kw of solar input MPPT, and replaces your solar inverter, does emergency backup with and without a home battery, and can charge 2 cars:
DCbel charger, inverter, backup power
It will be interesting to see what the price is on VW's unit, since this one is so similar. One thing I don't like is they charge $7 a month for their app. It does DCFC charge at 3x faster than L2, getting 60mi/h of range. Unlike the VW unit, this one has all the specs and pricing available right now, and it looks good but expensive (and I expect the VW 22kw unit to be expensive.) It looks to me there will be many options like this coming up in the next year.

It says Fast charging capabilities for all major EV models so I wonder if it already works with our ID.4?
Wow. Talk about "do everything" device. Hope it graduates from vaporware.
The one thing that's odd is that they place the transfer switch off of the main panel just switching a sub-panel. This means having to rewire all of your "important" loads to a sub panel. I think I'd prefer the transfer switch above the main, right? That would definitely violate the "1 hr" installation time (and require the utility company to come out probably). Am I missing something?
 

·
Registered User
Joined
·
774 Posts
Very promising really like this. I wonder how this works when the solar inverters are the micro versions that are installed under each panel.
Those systems will be a pain due to a lot of re-wiring, since this requires the solar panels to be in a series string to get up to the DC input MPPT voltage range of 240-500v, which is quite good if the MPPT can track this wide voltage and still be efficient. Most MPPT string inverters need at least 250-300vdc input to get good efficiency, and cut off all output below this level. My 8.25kw system uses a Sunny Boy string inverter which would be fairly easy to switch over since it is wired with each string of 11 panels in series putting out 300-400vdc.
 

·
Registered User
Joined
·
774 Posts
It supposed to be available now in LA and San Diego, and everywhere soon. I found more info in their FAQ about what is needed for cars to be bi-directional: pre-2021 CCS vehicles like the Chevrolet Bolt are not currently supported. The CCS standards are currently being revised to allow EV’s built to CCS standards to support bi-directional power flows. The revised standards are scheduled to be published this year (2020) and dcbel™was designed to be ready for the CCS protocol update and will be able to support Blackout Power via CCS with a small over the air upgrade shortly after the updated protocol is published.

Tesla has stated multiple places it is NOT going to support using your car battery as backup power, so a big thank you to VW for allowing this really cool advanced feature. I still wonder if VW will OTA update the 2021 models to support this, since it looks like just a software item and not a change in the CCS connector. If not, I may wait a few months on my AWD order for this feature in a 2022 model.
 

·
Premium Member
VW ID.4 1st (picked up 3/19/21).
Joined
·
1,131 Posts
Tesla has stated multiple places it is NOT going to support using your car battery as backup power, so a big thank you to VW for allowing this really cool advanced feature. I still wonder if VW will OTA update the 2021 models to support this, since it looks like just a software item and not a change in the CCS connector. If not, I may wait a few months on my AWD order for this feature in a 2022 model.
It isn't just a feature - any automaker supporting this runs the risk of people degrading their batteries if they frequently use this, so they are gambling that it would be rarely used - perhaps only in emergencies.
 

·
Registered User
2021 1st
Joined
·
817 Posts
This is already technology that is in use overseas so I would not be surprised to find that press release is not referring to a similar update for US ID4s. Musk wants Teslas to be used as virtual power plants and they been developing a monetizing platform to do that so Teslas won’t be getting that feature anytime soon or possibly ever.
 

·
Registered User
Joined
·
774 Posts
Wow. Talk about "do everything" device. Hope it graduates from vaporware.
The one thing that's odd is that they place the transfer switch off of the main panel just switching a sub-panel. This means having to rewire all of your "important" loads to a sub panel. I think I'd prefer the transfer switch above the main, right? That would definitely violate the "1 hr" installation time (and require the utility company to come out probably). Am I missing something?
They don't place the transfer before your main since the 15kw output is not enough to run a typical full house loads in a blackout. You can do this, but you might have to run to your breaker panel in an outage and turn off enough breakers to not overload the inverter to prevent it from shut it all off to protect itself. The nicest systems I have seen have a transfer switch integrated with breaker panel replacing the main with a switch on each of the circuits so you can choose which loads are grid only, and which are automatically and instantly switched to solar (and now car battery) operation when the grid goes down. The way that site shows is a 2nd sub panel where those are the only ones on the transfer switch and powered by the inverter & battery when on backup power. That option is usually cheaper and simpler to understand and operate, but that's not the only way to go depending on your house and what you need. Who needs to do the inspections/permits depends on your location.
 

·
Registered User
Joined
·
17 Posts
They don't place the transfer before your main since the 15kw output is not enough to run a typical full house loads in a blackout. You can do this, but you might have to run to your breaker panel in an outage and turn off enough breakers to not overload the inverter to prevent it from shut it all off to protect itself.
Yeah, I can see that. I have a procedure for my jury-rigged generator set up (do not try at home, kids) -- I have specified which breakers to turn off to stay within my generator output.

The nicest systems I have seen have a transfer switch integrated with breaker panel replacing the main with a switch on each of the circuits so you can choose which loads are grid only, and which are automatically and instantly switched to solar (and now car battery) operation when the grid goes down.
Yeah, I think I saw something like this from Generac for their whole house generators. Configurable which breakers are on during an outage.
 

·
Registered User
Joined
·
774 Posts
I did more study of ISO 15118 (the new CCS charger standard I mention above) and found the Plug & Charge feature that enables an EV to automatically identify and authorize itself to a charging station on behalf of the driver was mostly written to include the V2G vehicle to grid functions. So maybe we will get this V2G with that OTA they have already mentioned is coming.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ChristophW

·
Registered User
iD4 Pro Performance Max - Ordered July 2021 - Delivery December 2021 (hopefully)
Joined
·
155 Posts
I know a bunch of people with Nissan Leafs who have had a V2G setup running for several years. But they’re ChaDeMo not CCS. I don’t think that tech ever made it to the US. Maybe the VW V2G tech won’t make it to the US either?

It is many years since the last power outage where I live so I’m not worried about covering outages, but I do have a ToU tariff and my house battery isn’t big enough to get me through without using “peak” electricity if the sun doesn’t shine.

Elon doesn’t want Tesla owners to benefit from their cars supplying the grid. He wants to benefit. Another reason not to buy a Tesla if you ask me!
 

·
Registered User
Joined
·
110 Posts
I know a bunch of people with Nissan Leafs who have had a V2G setup running for several years. But they’re ChaDeMo not CCS. I don’t think that tech ever made it to the US. Maybe the VW V2G tech won’t make it to the US either?

It is many years since the last power outage where I live so I’m not worried about covering outages, but I do have a ToU tariff and my house battery isn’t big enough to get me through without using “peak” electricity if the sun doesn’t shine.

Elon doesn’t want Tesla owners to benefit from their cars supplying the grid. He wants to benefit. Another reason not to buy a Tesla if you ask me!
Having this feature would make the car a 50 yr asset. After battery has degraded (or you get tired of it and get a newer EV), you can leave the ID.4 in the garage attached serving as a house battery. LOL
 

·
Registered User
iD4 Pro Performance Max - Ordered July 2021 - Delivery December 2021 (hopefully)
Joined
·
155 Posts
Having this feature would make the car a 50 yr asset. After battery has degraded (or you get tired of it and get a newer EV), you can leave the ID.4 in the garage attached serving as a house battery. LOL
Even if you figure battery deg, used Leafs are so cheap these days that they’re the most cost effective way to get a house battery. While the capacity of Lithium batteries reduces as the battery degrades, unlike other chemistries the efficiency stays constant.

VW are keen to lease their BEVs rather than sell them, I’ve read reports that this is because VW want to own the batteries after you’re done with the car…
 

·
Registered User
Joined
·
70 Posts
Why am I so interested in this - you may ask. Well maybe I don't have to consider an expensive Generac system to keep my well pump running, or house heated or refrigeration on when the power goes out. I don't need to power up the whole house, just one or two essentials for a limited time. What a great convenience to have water during a power outage.
Also, another terrific benefit is if either my wife or I run out of power on the open road with one of our EVs (sometime in the future, we don't have an EV yet) the second car could run to the rescue of the "stalled" car - no calling on the flat bed!
I'd be very surprised if any car manufacturer provides bidirectional power equivalent to a 240 line at least in the near future. The Ioniq 5 only provides something like 120v/1500 watts, not nearly enough to power a well pump or house heat, etc. Their demo's always feature a coffee maker or fruit juicer. Perhaps in the future there will be a way to do this, but I don't think it's likely until battery technology becomes a lot more advanced, or much of the infrastructure we take for granted today becomes so efficient that high power devices are unnecessary (about the time fusion reactors are powering your neighborhood). 😁
 

·
Registered User
iD4 Pro Performance Max - Ordered July 2021 - Delivery December 2021 (hopefully)
Joined
·
155 Posts
If the Leaf can power a 7.4kW 240V V2G domestic load then I don’t see why any other BEV couldn’t power a whole house.
 

·
Registered User
Joined
·
110 Posts
I'd be very surprised if any car manufacturer provides bidirectional power equivalent to a 240 line at least in the near future. The Ioniq 5 only provides something like 120v/1500 watts, not nearly enough to power a well pump or house heat, etc. Their demo's always feature a coffee maker or fruit juicer. Perhaps in the future there will be a way to do this, but I don't think it's likely until battery technology becomes a lot more advanced, or much of the infrastructure we take for granted today becomes so efficient that high power devices are unnecessary (about the time fusion reactors are powering your neighborhood). 😁
You're talking V2L (load). Companies like Ford and VW are talking V2H/V2G which has to be split 240. Battery tech is plenty advanced already. In the hot SW, my summer day power usage could be 40-50 kWh with peak use of 5 kW... the ID.4 has a 82 kWh pack with 77 kWh usable and instantaneous output of 150+ kW (150 kW motor plus vehicle accessories like the HVAC system)!
 

·
Registered User
Joined
·
110 Posts
VW are keen to lease their BEVs rather than sell them, I’ve read reports that this is because VW want to own the batteries after you’re done with the car…
That's exactly what the CEO said... But if you had the V2G setup, why would you trade it in? You'd be losing money trading it in vs using it as a house battery. :)
 

·
Registered User
Joined
·
31 Posts
I can summarize here what I wrote in a solar panel forum: https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/foru...-residential-solar-system?p=428477#post428477

There are several pieces of equipment that have to talk to each other: Car, EV Charger and Automatic Transfer Switch.

The key is communication. The transfer switch has to be able to detect that the utility power is out, isolate the house from the grid, and signal to the EV charger and Car that they need to now work in reverse, supplying power to the loads through the EV charger.

I have a SolarEdge StorEdge inverter with the 9.8kWh LG Chem battery as backup for critical loads and don't really have a need to use the ID.4 battery for this purpose but it would be nice to have the option in the future. The technology is currently in it's very early infancy and I'm not expecting a 2021 ID.4 to somehow have it baked in already.
 

·
Registered User
iD4 Pro Performance Max - Ordered July 2021 - Delivery December 2021 (hopefully)
Joined
·
155 Posts
That's exactly what the CEO said... But if you had the V2G setup, why would you trade it in? You'd be losing money trading it in vs using it as a house battery. :)
If it’s on a lease then it isn’t your choice, you have to give it back. Previously manufacturers have been keen to extend the lease of ICEVs, but they don’t have to.

Consumers want the latest and greatest thing to show off to the neighbours. They won’t realise how much value the battery has in V2G operation.

There are a whole bunch of special V2G electricity tariffs in the UK, many are along the lines of “plug the car in from 6pm to 5am on a minimum of 10 occasions in a month and we’ll give you £30 off your bill, 20 occasions and we’ll give you £60” sure they come with a free £10k V2G charging point, but wholesale electricity prices can be 10x higher during early evening peak compared with overnight. If it is windy then the overnight wholesale price frequently goes negative.

[The UK energy market is a mess right now, several nukes are offline for “unplanned maintenance”, a fire took out a HVDC interconnect to France, and there has been little wind. The power companies have been relying on “backup up” CCGT generators that burn gas imported from Russia. Other European countries are in a similar position so the wholesale price of gas has rocketed. Uncle Vlad meanwhile sits there with his hand on the gas valve ready to plunge Europe into darkness. Let’s hope the wind blows this winter…]
 
41 - 60 of 77 Posts
Top