[agzand]

In the past few months I have been watching many range test videos and articles on iD3, iD4, Skoda Enyaq and Audi Q4 e-Tron. It appears that the impact of wheel size on consumption in MEB based cars is much less than comparable cars from Tesla, Polestar, etc. What are your thoughts on that?

Is it possible that the larger wheels just have better construction (e.g. lighter weight construction), so they don't reduce the range much?

 

[d287]

I actually got curious about that ... looked up the part #s and their weights:
19" 11A601025FZZ 15.54 kg / 34.25 lbs
20" 11A601025AFZZ 16.88 kg / 37.2 lbs
20" 11A601025HFZZ 17.5 kg / 38.58 lbs

Not 100% sure this is accurate - just based on internet searching, but it seems to make sense. I assume the 20" has different wheels front and rear, whereas the 19" has the same wheel and just different tires.

 

[agzand]

I actually got curious about that ... looked up the part #s and their weights:
19" 11A601025FZZ 15.54 kg / 34.25 lbs
20" 11A601025AFZZ 16.88 kg / 37.2 lbs
20" 11A601025HFZZ 17.5 kg / 38.58 lbs

Not 100% sure this is accurate - just based on internet searching, but it seems to make sense. I assume the 20" has different wheels front and rear, whereas the 19" has the same wheel and just different tires.

Thanks for the numbers. The 19 inch wheels are staggered as well.

So there is a 3-4 lb weight difference, it is strange that it doesn't impact range more. For example the Q4 e-Tron with 19 and 20 inch wheels has the same EPA rating. Even in actual tests the iD4 with 19 and 20 in had very similar consumption.

 

[d287]

The 19" wheels are the same, only the tires are staggered - you can use different size tires on the same size wheels. The VW Parts website lists only a single 19" wheel.

And yes, agree with you I would expect the heavier wheels to have more of an impact...

 

[voxel]

Apples and oranges comparison because the larger wider tires for Mach-E and Teslas are for extra grip and handling. The highest Mach-E trims use fat tires and lose a bunch of range compared to the slightly lower trims with thinner tires.

Thinner tires reduce rolling resistance according to this.

Discount Tire | Tires and Wheels for Sale | Online & In-Person

www.discounttire.com

Most MEB based cars are not performance based. Soft suspension, body roll, understeer with RWD. You don’t need the same range-losing performance tires since you won’t be taking it to the track.

 

[agzand]

Apples and oranges comparison because the larger wider tires for Mach-E and Teslas are for extra grip and handling. The highest Mach-E trims use fat tires and lose a bunch of range compared to the slightly lower trims with thinner tires.

Thinner tires reduce rolling resistance according to this.

Discount Tire | Tires and Wheels for Sale | Online & In-Person

www.discounttire.com

Most MEB based cars are not performance based. Soft suspension, body roll, understeer with RWD. You don’t need the same range-losing performance tires since you won’t be taking it to the track.

Good point, the width impact is definitely significant (I have a BMW i3 with motorcycle tires!).

I think most drivers believe iD4 handles better than Mach-e. Tesla handles better than both. So I wouldn't call iD4 floaty. But Mach-e has more aggressive power delivery.

 

[voxel]

Good point, the width impact is definitely significant (I have a BMW i3 with motorcycle tires!).

I think most drivers believe iD4 handles better than Mach-e. Tesla handles better than both. So I wouldn't call iD4 floaty. But Mach-e has more aggressive power delivery.

The Mach-E when I test drove it (I owned an ID.4 Pro at the time and drove that to the dealership) was more of a EV muscle car. To me, it handles better because it is also lower to the ground but I could feel the weight of it. The ID.4 is just smoother in acceleration and braking - it's all linear. Like you could drive and a baby would not wake but that's not true of the Mach-E. I had the same discussion with Mach-E owners on their forums. The Mach-E has aggressive acceleration and braking (some might say jerky). You let go of the accelerator and regen jerks on. It's very much a sports car and I tried the various modes.

Everything is debatable on the Model Y... I find the ride a tad rougher than the ID.4 but about the same as the Mach-E. There are three variants (19" and 20" and the Performance 21") and I drive the 20" variant. I personally would like a lower range Model Y that is lighter.

If you want range... get RWD only. I found the ID.4 Pro RWD perfectly adequate in terms of acceleration and speed. I still don't get the obsession with AWD. It's fun for a bit... but you know the best driving EV to me is still the Model 3 Standard Range (RWD). It's light, nimble, fast, handles amazing, charges fast, and has decent range. Sadly it lacks cargo space so it's not really practical for me.

 

[d287]

Agreed about the Mach E - we had a 24 hour test drive and put a lot of miles on it. And my wife got out of it every time and asked me if I also had a headache from its abrupt power delivery (and I did by the end of the day!). Also had very jerky brake blending. ID.4 may not be quite as fast but smoothed all those rough edges. (Plus the door pulls aren’t flimsy like the Ford!) Wasn’t enamored with the Mach E handling (none of these are sports cars) but the narrow tires squealed and complained quite a bit on the Premium AWD I was driving. I’m sure a GT would be better, but ride even worse… where the ID.4 glides over bad roads the Mach E crashed over them like, well, a Mustang. It’s too bad the handling didn’t live up to the ride or the acceleration. The ID.4 is neutral until you push it, then like an Audi it developed progressive understeer.

As for the Model Y, I only drove it once but found it fast in a straight line but not pleasant on twisty roads. Then again, the ID.4 has that progressive understeer that makes it hard to toss into a corner at high speeds. (slow in, fast out is how it hustles) The Model Y seemed to have more body roll and wallowed over potholes much more than the ID.4, which floats over them.

 

[agzand]

The iD4 and most other EVs handle well under progressive lateral forces because they have low center of gravity. What throws them off is sudden directional changes where the weight starts to show.

 

[d287]

The iD4 and most other EVs handle well under progressive lateral forces because they have low center of gravity. What throws them off is sudden directional changes where the weight starts to show.

Yup. Exactly the opposite of my Golf, with its 45 series tires on 18” wheels, weighing 1,500lbs less than the ID.4, and 1.8 Turbo that needs to keep revs up to make power

 

[voxel]

As for the Model Y, I only drove it once but found it fast in a straight line but not pleasant on twisty roads. Then again, the ID.4 has that progressive understeer that makes it hard to toss into a corner at high speeds. (slow in, fast out is how it hustles) The Model Y seemed to have more body roll and wallowed over potholes much more than the ID.4, which floats over them.

Comparisons are hard because we all probably drove different variants (I owned a ID.4 Pro RWD with the 19" tires and now a Model Y with 20" inductions). I found my ID.4 on hard lane changes about to rollover. It's the soft suspension IMO. I hard lane change on the Model Y and it feels planted (Model 3 more so but that's because of the lowered suspension and is lighter). It also feels more of the bumps.

I totally agree that the ID.4 handles potholes better than all EVs I've tested but I think that's due to the softer suspension. It's a trade off to me. You can't have the perfect system unless you have some dynamically adjustable air suspension and that's quite expensive.

IMO I want lighter (read: smaller batteries) EVs for daily commuters. More efficient, better handling, cheaper. I suspect VW is scared if they bring the ID.3 over to the US it won't sell.

 

[systemlogicblah]

I actually got curious about that ... looked up the part #s and their weights:
19" 11A601025FZZ 15.54 kg / 34.25 lbs
20" 11A601025AFZZ 16.88 kg / 37.2 lbs
20" 11A601025HFZZ 17.5 kg / 38.58 lbs

Not 100% sure this is accurate - just based on internet searching, but it seems to make sense. I assume the 20" has different wheels front and rear, whereas the 19" has the same wheel and just different tires.

Just spitballing. I wonder if the combined weight of the wheel and tire combo narrows the mass delta a bit more, too?

 

[d287]

Comparisons are hard because we all probably drove different variants (I owned a ID.4 Pro RWD with the 19" tires and now a Model Y with 20" inductions). I found my ID.4 on hard lane changes about to rollover. It's the soft suspension IMO. I hard lane change on the Model Y and it feels planted (Model 3 more so but that's because of the lowered suspension and is lighter). It also feels more of the bumps.

I totally agree that the ID.4 handles potholes better than all EVs I've tested but I think that's due to the softer suspension. It's a trade off to me. You can't have the perfect system unless you have some dynamically adjustable air suspension and that's quite expensive.

IMO I want lighter (read: smaller batteries) EVs for daily commuters. More efficient, better handling, cheaper. I suspect VW is scared if they bring the ID.3 over to the US it won't sell.

The nice thing about the ID.4 ride isn't that it's soft, it's that it's soft and well damped... that lack of rebound is what makes it feel better over potholes. It's certainly the best compromise for a car without adaptive dampers. The ride quality of the ID.4 actually reminds me most of the large cars with the three pointed star (Mercedes E/S class)... potholes almost vanish and you just kind of hear them rather than feel them... Doesn't make for spirited cornering, but body lean isn't something I've noticed... it's just that when you hit the limits, the tires give up, and you begin to understeer wide, but the vehicle remains flat; there's no roll at all. Don't know how much different the tuning is from Pro to Pros and RWD to AWD, but I've never felt any body roll in mine. Just the tire sidewalls giving up and allowing the front end to plow wide. If it were a race car, I'd dial in more front wing ;-)

 

[SunWizard]

I wonder if the combined weight of the wheel and tire combo narrows the mass delta a bit more, too?

No, the 20" tires weigh more so makes a bigger delta. If you compare the same Bridgestone Alenza Sport A/S in 19" they weigh 26F/27R and in 20" they weigh more at 26F/28R.

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Bridgestone&tireModel=Alenza+Sport+A/S&frontTire=355TR9ASASXL&rearTire=55TR9ASASXL&vehicleSearch=true&fromCompare1=yes&autoMake=Volkswagen&autoYear=2021&autoModel=ID.4&autoModClar=&AID=10691520&PID=100108763&SID=130832X1606311X88b999b22ac0210ef9cdb3025b28b667&cjevent=8541fb83435211ec81c401360a1c0e12

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Bridgestone&tireModel=Alenza+Sport+A%2FS&frontTire=35TR0ASASXL&rearTire=545TR0ASASXL&vehicleSearch=true&fromCompare1=yes&autoMake=Volkswagen&autoYear=2021&autoModel=ID.4&autoModClar=

 

[d287]

No, the 20" tires weigh more so makes a bigger delta. If you compare the same Bridgestone Alenza Sport A/S in 19" they weigh 26F/27R and in 20" they weigh more at 26F/28R.

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Bridgestone&tireModel=Alenza+Sport+A/S&frontTire=355TR9ASASXL&rearTire=55TR9ASASXL&vehicleSearch=true&fromCompare1=yes&autoMake=Volkswagen&autoYear=2021&autoModel=ID.4&autoModClar=&AID=10691520&PID=100108763&SID=130832X1606311X88b999b22ac0210ef9cdb3025b28b667&cjevent=8541fb83435211ec81c401360a1c0e12

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Bridgestone&tireModel=Alenza+Sport+A%2FS&frontTire=35TR0ASASXL&rearTire=545TR0ASASXL&vehicleSearch=true&fromCompare1=yes&autoMake=Volkswagen&autoYear=2021&autoModel=ID.4&autoModClar=

Interesting, and not what I would have guessed, but tires are super complicated… maybe there’s more steel belts in the 20” tire to give it the strength needed to cope with the shorter sidewall? It is only 1/10 of an inch wider on the contact patch, and actually has a lower load rating than the 19. A good find!

 

[d287]

No, the 20" tires weigh more so makes a bigger delta. If you compare the same Bridgestone Alenza Sport A/S in 19" they weigh 26F/27R and in 20" they weigh more at 26F/28R.

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Bridgestone&tireModel=Alenza+Sport+A/S&frontTire=355TR9ASASXL&rearTire=55TR9ASASXL&vehicleSearch=true&fromCompare1=yes&autoMake=Volkswagen&autoYear=2021&autoModel=ID.4&autoModClar=&AID=10691520&PID=100108763&SID=130832X1606311X88b999b22ac0210ef9cdb3025b28b667&cjevent=8541fb83435211ec81c401360a1c0e12

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Bridgestone&tireModel=Alenza+Sport+A%2FS&frontTire=35TR0ASASXL&rearTire=545TR0ASASXL&vehicleSearch=true&fromCompare1=yes&autoMake=Volkswagen&autoYear=2021&autoModel=ID.4&autoModClar=

Another interesting point is that the front tires are larger in total diameter than the rears, which VW must have included in their calculations - yet another reason you wouldn’t want to rotate the tires front to rear! I guess that’s the nice thing about EVs - couldn’t use different size tires front and rear on a ICE AWD car!

 

[VW TECHNICIAN]

In the past few months I have been watching many range test videos and articles on iD3, iD4, Skoda Enyaq and Audi Q4 e-Tron. It appears that the impact of wheel size on consumption in MEB based cars is much less than comparable cars from Tesla, Polestar, etc. What are your thoughts on that?

Is it possible that the larger wheels just have better construction (e.g. lighter weight construction), so they don't reduce the range much?

Tesla is using tires specifically developed for Tesla and it is more towards grip and performance design.

 

[7S POWER]

I still don't get the obsession with AWD.

LOL. I love quattro and will always be. The difference in range between the RWD and AWD is nothing to brag about for the extra traction

 

[voxel]

LOL. I love quattro and will always be. The difference in range between the RWD and AWD is nothing to brag about for the extra traction

Most EVs (except Rivian which has 4 separate motors) use induction motors in the front that are rarely used - even at highway cruise. Ioniq/EV6, Tesla 3/Y, Mach-E, ID.4, etc. all use this design. It's not true AWD. It's nice for the extra acceleration boost.

I argue tires/wheels are more important for traction.

 

[Fahrer]

Most EVs (except Rivian which has 4 separate motors) use induction motors in the front that are rarely used - even at highway cruise. Ioniq/EV6, Tesla 3/Y, Mach-E, ID.4, etc. all use this design. It's not true AWD. It's nice for the extra acceleration boost.

I argue tires/wheels are more important for traction.

Actually VW 4Motion AWD is only FWD until additional traction is needed with their ICE powered cars.
Actually Audi is now moving away from their traditional AWD Quattro to a system that works more like what is found in VWs. To get a bit more mpg ( 1-2 mpg?) Audi AWD sedans now operate in FWD mode until more traction is needed. Unfortunately, there is a significant increase in complexity with the new Audi AWD system.