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2023 AWD Pro S, Tourmaline Blue/Cosmic
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Not true, the 23 decreased the range on RWD Pro model and really just shuffled around how they grouped them to test, here are the EPA ranges:
22 RWD Pro 280, 23 = 275
22 RWD Pro S 268, 23 = 275
22 AWD Pro 251, 23 = 255
22 AWD Pro S 245, 23 = 255

Note the 22 miles less range on the 22 RWD Pro S compared to the Pro has to be due to the 20" wheels compared to 19", since the weight difference of 105 pounds could only lower the range < 1 mile. On the 23 models its harder to get the 19" wheels and the range difference due to this is covered up by re-shuffling the test groups.
It's not exactly fair to truncate my sentence like that, here's what I said: "23 had some significant advantages in range and charging, better console, etc, as well as the tax credit." As in the list of things is a significant advantage, not a huge bump in range. 3 of the 4 increased. I'll admit I didn't know the rwd pro went down, as I have no interest in either the pro model or rwd. Around here only AWD sell, and the glass roof was a must. My AWD Pro S did indeed increase 10 miles in range.

The bigger deal is faster charging, which isn't just a software thing. The older cars will never be able to DCFC at the rate of the 23 models, at least not the ones that didn't get the shaft on the battery (again doesn't apply to AWD models).
 

· Registered User
2023 AWD Pro S, Tourmaline Blue/Cosmic
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418 Posts
Looks like Tesla stock has recovered & they are saying demand is up. I guess price reductions helped. Short term future for other EV companies look 🤔
Down about 40% over 6mo or over a year is an interesting definition of recovery... Yes, it's def improved in the last few weeks, but this is a bit of a stretch. Might bear out that way over time, might not, but certainly not enough data to make any conclusions at this point.

The more interesting question is the long term futures of Tesla and the other manufacturers. Tesla had a pretty smart pricing and lack of dealership strategy, in that it was fixed price, no haggling, no discounts etc... If they had maintained a more reasonable price through the pandemic crunch time and not yoyo'd price to demand, that would have maintained an image of quality and value in the minds of consumers (at a short term significant opportunity cost, of course). Jacking the price way up when you could was very profitable in the short run, reflected in the stock price etc. The huge price drop does incite short term demand, but in the long term the brand image, the perception of value and quality, is greatly damaged by such a move. There are many other factors that play into this when you take a deeper dive into marketing principles, and I think the long term results of these huge price variations will be far more detrimental to Tesla than the short term benefits have been/will be here for the next little while. But I guess we will see...

It's kind of a shame (in theory, not to me personally as one who dislikes Tesla), as I think Tesla was on track to show that there could actually be a long term model based on little/no advertising etc for a large company like this. I think they killed any chance of that with the big price drop (problem started with the crazy price hikes, but the felt effect from the consumer will be more a result of the drop). The brand will lose a large portion of it's consumer confidence and percieved value.

Doubt this will be the most pertinent example on a car enthusiast forum, but I'll try it. I'm a woodworker, and in that world there's another German brand called Festool that is very highly regarded. They have, for a very long time, fixed their prices and all retailers must sell them at full retail, or they'll be pulled as suppliers. They are quite expensive tools, and those of us who like them understand that they cost what they cost, always. Once a year the prices go up, so buy before then to avoid paying more, but that's your only option if you want new. They have strictly maintained this, and those willing to pay a premium for a premium tool will pay it without question if they want that tool enough. There's no price shopping other vendors, no conjecture if there might be a sale next month, no feeling ripped off because the price dropped a month after you bought... The perception of quality and value (though expensive) is steadfast. They never have a sale cannibalizing many full price orders that would have happened anyway at a later date. People don't wait to buy hoping for a sale, and maybe get lured into a sale product in the meantime... They buy now if they really want it and can afford to. Their entire image would change if they played price games. Probably would have great windfall moments, but the long run would be much more volatile and most likely much less profitable. Once you start that game, it's hard to win it against many other players trying to do the race to the bottom. Especially when you have a more premium offering, not an economy grade one.

They do some non traditional marketing as well... I'm convinced that only extremely niche products can survive in the long run without marketing. Tesla was more niche, now becoming more mainstream. That lack of marketing worked before, but it's going to bite them for a long time to come as they're no longer the early to market niche item.

I could go on and on about business/marketing strategy, but the point to this thread is, if VW is smart they won't engage in price wars. They will fix their Achilles heel of software problems, take input from everyone here etc on improvements, and market their great (now even greater with the fixes and improvements) car for what it is. It will be harder in the short run, but they have deep enough pockets to play the longer game and sell their quality and value, rather than jump into the race to the bottom. They can't ever compete that race unless they start massively cheapening out their vehicles, which is no win for us the consumer either.
 

· Registered User
2021 VW iD4 1st Edition Glacier White
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794 Posts
Down about 40% over 6mo or over a year is an interesting definition of recovery... Yes, it's def improved in the last few weeks, but this is a bit of a stretch. Might bear out that way over time, might not, but certainly not enough data to make any conclusions at this point.

The more interesting question is the long term futures of Tesla and the other manufacturers. Tesla had a pretty smart pricing and lack of dealership strategy, in that it was fixed price, no haggling, no discounts etc... If they had maintained a more reasonable price through the pandemic crunch time and not yoyo'd price to demand, that would have maintained an image of quality and value in the minds of consumers (at a short term significant opportunity cost, of course). Jacking the price way up when you could was very profitable in the short run, reflected in the stock price etc. The huge price drop does incite short term demand, but in the long term the brand image, the perception of value and quality, is greatly damaged by such a move. There are many other factors that play into this when you take a deeper dive into marketing principles, and I think the long term results of these huge price variations will be far more detrimental to Tesla than the short term benefits have been/will be here for the next little while. But I guess we will see...

It's kind of a shame (in theory, not to me personally as one who dislikes Tesla), as I think Tesla was on track to show that there could actually be a long term model based on little/no advertising etc for a large company like this. I think they killed any chance of that with the big price drop (problem started with the crazy price hikes, but the felt effect from the consumer will be more a result of the drop). The brand will lose a large portion of it's consumer confidence and percieved value.

Doubt this will be the most pertinent example on a car enthusiast forum, but I'll try it. I'm a woodworker, and in that world there's another German brand called Festool that is very highly regarded. They have, for a very long time, fixed their prices and all retailers must sell them at full retail, or they'll be pulled as suppliers. They are quite expensive tools, and those of us who like them understand that they cost what they cost, always. Once a year the prices go up, so buy before then to avoid paying more, but that's your only option if you want new. They have strictly maintained this, and those willing to pay a premium for a premium tool will pay it without question if they want that tool enough. There's no price shopping other vendors, no conjecture if there might be a sale next month, no feeling ripped off because the price dropped a month after you bought... The perception of quality and value (though expensive) is steadfast. They never have a sale cannibalizing many full price orders that would have happened anyway at a later date. People don't wait to buy hoping for a sale, and maybe get lured into a sale product in the meantime... They buy now if they really want it and can afford to. Their entire image would change if they played price games. Probably would have great windfall moments, but the long run would be much more volatile and most likely much less profitable. Once you start that game, it's hard to win it against many other players trying to do the race to the bottom. Especially when you have a more premium offering, not an economy grade one.

They do some non traditional marketing as well... I'm convinced that only extremely niche products can survive in the long run without marketing. Tesla was more niche, now becoming more mainstream. That lack of marketing worked before, but it's going to bite them for a long time to come as they're no longer the early to market niche item.

I could go on and on about business/marketing strategy, but the point to this thread is, if VW is smart they won't engage in price wars. They will fix their Achilles heel of software problems, take input from everyone here etc on improvements, and market their great (now even greater with the fixes and improvements) car for what it is. It will be harder in the short run, but they have deep enough pockets to play the longer game and sell their quality and value, rather than jump into the race to the bottom. They can't ever compete that race unless they start massively cheapening out their vehicles, which is no win for us the consumer either.
Tesla could not maintain pricing during pandemic, because demand was higher than supply. So if they had kept prices low they would have a 3 year waitlist and people would resell cars in secondary market with huge profits.

Tesla has had different methods of marketing in the past, mainly referral codes. It doesn't make a difference if you are paying a magazine or TV or an owner to advertise your car. Marketing is marketing. They thought the referral models has higher return on dollar spent, probably they were right.

The problem other carmakers have currently is that their battery, electronics, and drivetrain manufacturing is too labor intensive, costly, and as a result capacity limited. This is due to lower technology designs (e.g. complex battery packs, segregated electronics, complex software), too much reliance on suppliers, and in general lower volume targets. I doubt VW can make money on ID4s at current prices, Tesla has fat margin even with reduced prices. So they are gaining market share at expense of other upmarket brands.

Eventually they will lose the high end market to Mercedes, BMW etc. The market for drivers that don't care about cost of ownership and want the best and greatest experience and exclusivity. But they should be able to penetrate other markets (trucks, compact cars, city cars), I think they are on track to become one of the largest carmakers in terms of revenue and profits in a couple of years.
 

· Registered User
2023 AWD Pro S, Tourmaline Blue/Cosmic
Joined
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418 Posts
Tesla could not maintain pricing during pandemic, because demand was higher than supply. So if they had kept prices low they would have a 3 year waitlist and people would resell cars in secondary market with huge profits.

Tesla has had different methods of marketing in the past, mainly referral codes. It doesn't make a difference if you are paying a magazine or TV or an owner to advertise your car. Marketing is marketing. They thought the referral models has higher return on dollar spent, probably they were right.

The problem other carmakers have currently is that their battery, electronics, and drivetrain manufacturing is too labor intensive, costly, and as a result capacity limited. This is due to lower technology designs (e.g. complex battery packs, segregated electronics, complex software), too much reliance on suppliers, and in general lower volume targets. I doubt VW can make money on ID4s at current prices, Tesla has fat margin even with reduced prices. So they are gaining market share at expense of other upmarket brands.

Eventually they will lose the high end market to Mercedes, BMW etc. The market for drivers that don't care about cost of ownership and want the best and greatest experience and exclusivity. But they should be able to penetrate other markets (trucks, compact cars, city cars), I think they are on track to become one of the largest carmakers in terms of revenue and profits in a couple of years.
Nonsense. Every EV had this demand issue and they didn't all gouge their customers. Dealerships did in some/many cases, but the manufacturers mostly didn't do like Tesla. Yes, people resold then for profit. They did that with every brand. So what? Ironically that would have happened less if they had kept price lower, as the long wait time would have reduced people's willingness to let go of their car knowing they couldn't get another one for a long time. By adjusting pricing to demand, lots of people took the opportunity to profit as the wait for the next one was reasonably short in comparison.

Also, aren't these same people saying Tesla had to do absurd price gouging increases the same people who moaned endlessly about the evils of VW doing the relatively small price increase a few weeks ago?

I'm not going to go to far down the rabbit trail about Tesla cost cutting, as I've been asked to move away from that topic by a mod, but the way they maintain those margins is by cheapening the car, nagging it hard/impossible to repair, expensive to insure, etc. All loser propositions for the consumer unless offered at a very cheap price. As the market fills out with lots more options and many much better built, Tesla will probably have to continue the price cutting race to the bottom to stay competitive. That may well give them a high sales volume, but we're back to the problem... The price war race to bottom is only good for the buyers of econoboxes. VW should steer far clear of that.

Volume targets of course will be lower due for a newer entry to the market. However you have that backwards... Tesla marketshare of EVs will only decline. They may well increase the overall vehicle marketshare as they ramp up production, but largely that will be a function of EVs taking over marketshare, not Tesla doing best among EVs. Those days are likely over. They will increase overall production, but highly unlikely they're share in the EV market.

They may get up there to play with the big boys, but won't be for a while. And if they continue on the recent path, I don't think they'll get there at all.

Anyway, more relevant to the topic... VW should absolutely not try to play that game. They will lose that game. Let Tesla and others fight the race to the bottom with the other econobox makers, especially the Chinese. They will be dominating that market in most of the world before much longer, and could in the US as well if the US ever lets some of those brands in.

The way to differentiate and establish yourself in the auto market if you're VW is to fix the glaring issues and market yourself as the upper end of the non-luxury market, at a fair value for product delivered. It's not a get rich quick model, but it's the right long play for them. First step is to fix the software though... Can't stay a player in that market with subpar software.
 

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Down about 40% over 6mo or over a year is an interesting definition of recovery... Yes, it's def improved in the last few weeks, but this is a bit of a stretch. Might bear out that way over time, might not, but certainly not enough data to make any conclusions at this point.

The more interesting question is the long term futures of Tesla and the other manufacturers. Tesla had a pretty smart pricing and lack of dealership strategy, in that it was fixed price, no haggling, no discounts etc... If they had maintained a more reasonable price through the pandemic crunch time and not yoyo'd price to demand, that would have maintained an image of quality and value in the minds of consumers (at a short term significant opportunity cost, of course). Jacking the price way up when you could was very profitable in the short run, reflected in the stock price etc. The huge price drop does incite short term demand, but in the long term the brand image, the perception of value and quality, is greatly damaged by such a move. There are many other factors that play into this when you take a deeper dive into marketing principles, and I think the long term results of these huge price variations will be far more detrimental to Tesla than the short term benefits have been/will be here for the next little while. But I guess we will see...

It's kind of a shame (in theory, not to me personally as one who dislikes Tesla), as I think Tesla was on track to show that there could actually be a long term model based on little/no advertising etc for a large company like this. I think they killed any chance of that with the big price drop (problem started with the crazy price hikes, but the felt effect from the consumer will be more a result of the drop). The brand will lose a large portion of it's consumer confidence and percieved value.

Doubt this will be the most pertinent example on a car enthusiast forum, but I'll try it. I'm a woodworker, and in that world there's another German brand called Festool that is very highly regarded. They have, for a very long time, fixed their prices and all retailers must sell them at full retail, or they'll be pulled as suppliers. They are quite expensive tools, and those of us who like them understand that they cost what they cost, always. Once a year the prices go up, so buy before then to avoid paying more, but that's your only option if you want new. They have strictly maintained this, and those willing to pay a premium for a premium tool will pay it without question if they want that tool enough. There's no price shopping other vendors, no conjecture if there might be a sale next month, no feeling ripped off because the price dropped a month after you bought... The perception of quality and value (though expensive) is steadfast. They never have a sale cannibalizing many full price orders that would have happened anyway at a later date. People don't wait to buy hoping for a sale, and maybe get lured into a sale product in the meantime... They buy now if they really want it and can afford to. Their entire image would change if they played price games. Probably would have great windfall moments, but the long run would be much more volatile and most likely much less profitable. Once you start that game, it's hard to win it against many other players trying to do the race to the bottom. Especially when you have a more premium offering, not an economy grade one.

They do some non traditional marketing as well... I'm convinced that only extremely niche products can survive in the long run without marketing. Tesla was more niche, now becoming more mainstream. That lack of marketing worked before, but it's going to bite them for a long time to come as they're no longer the early to market niche item.

I could go on and on about business/marketing strategy, but the point to this thread is, if VW is smart they won't engage in price wars. They will fix their Achilles heel of software problems, take input from everyone here etc on improvements, and market their great (now even greater with the fixes and improvements) car for what it is. It will be harder in the short run, but they have deep enough pockets to play the longer game and sell their quality and value, rather than jump into the race to the bottom. They can't ever compete that race unless they start massively cheapening out their vehicles, which is no win for us the consumer either.
the entire market is down by 50% or more..
 

· Registered User
2021 VW iD4 1st Edition Glacier White
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794 Posts
Nonsense. Every EV had this demand issue and they didn't all gouge their customers. Dealerships did in some/many cases, but the manufacturers mostly didn't do like Tesla. Yes, people resold then for profit. They did that with every brand. So what? Ironically that would have happened less if they had kept price lower, as the long wait time would have reduced people's willingness to let go of their car knowing they couldn't get another one for a long time. By adjusting pricing to demand, lots of people took the opportunity to profit as the wait for the next one was reasonably short in comparison.

Also, aren't these same people saying Tesla had to do absurd price gouging increases the same people who moaned endlessly about the evils of VW doing the relatively small price increase a few weeks ago?

I'm not going to go to far down the rabbit trail about Tesla cost cutting, as I've been asked to move away from that topic by a mod, but the way they maintain those margins is by cheapening the car, nagging it hard/impossible to repair, expensive to insure, etc. All loser propositions for the consumer unless offered at a very cheap price. As the market fills out with lots more options and many much better built, Tesla will probably have to continue the price cutting race to the bottom to stay competitive. That may well give them a high sales volume, but we're back to the problem... The price war race to bottom is only good for the buyers of econoboxes. VW should steer far clear of that.

Volume targets of course will be lower due for a newer entry to the market. However you have that backwards... Tesla marketshare of EVs will only decline. They may well increase the overall vehicle marketshare as they ramp up production, but largely that will be a function of EVs taking over marketshare, not Tesla doing best among EVs. Those days are likely over. They will increase overall production, but highly unlikely they're share in the EV market.

They may get up there to play with the big boys, but won't be for a while. And if they continue on the recent path, I don't think they'll get there at all.

Anyway, more relevant to the topic... VW should absolutely not try to play that game. They will lose that game. Let Tesla and others fight the race to the bottom with the other econobox makers, especially the Chinese. They will be dominating that market in most of the world before much longer, and could in the US as well if the US ever lets some of those brands in.

The way to differentiate and establish yourself in the auto market if you're VW is to fix the glaring issues and market yourself as the upper end of the non-luxury market, at a fair value for product delivered. It's not a get rich quick model, but it's the right long play for them. First step is to fix the software though... Can't stay a player in that market with subpar software.
You don't think clearly and objectively due to some sort of hatred toward Tesla. VW increased their prices by $4k or so, and dealers gouged customers by another $5-$10k. So it is not unique to Tesla. Ford increased EV prices by similar numbers. It makes sense for company that makes the car to pocket the profit, not someone who just signs a couple of pages to make $15k profit. Right now Model Y is a better value at $54k than iD4, so by your definition VW is ripping off their customers. You don't have to buy a Tesla or VW, it is not milk or baby formula. Audi, BMW etc. make even larger margins on their high end ($100k+) models. Ferrari makes close to 50% gross margin. Why it is OK for all of them except Tesla?
 

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You don't think clearly and objectively due to some sort of hatred toward Tesla. VW increased their prices by $4k or so, and dealers gouged customers by another $5-$10k. So it is not unique to Tesla. Ford increased EV prices by similar numbers. It makes sense for company that makes the car to pocket the profit, not someone who just signs a couple of pages to make $15k profit. Right now Model Y is a better value at $54k than iD4, so by your definition VW is ripping off their customers. You don't have to buy a Tesla or VW, it is not milk or baby formula. Audi, BMW etc. make even larger margins on their high end ($100k+) models. Ferrari makes close to 50% gross margin. Why it is OK for all of them except Tesla?
Nobody reads his weak arguments even the moderator is sick of it. Facts are in the numbers just not according to his feelings.
 

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Discussion Starter · #357 ·
Once demand drops, next trick Tesla is gonna drop is better mileage battery pack. VW, Nissan need to up there game on mileage. No idea if they are working on better battery packs.
 

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Just going to add my thought based on some clues from others in the forum. The $1500 increase was to cover part of the $3750 price drop VW is going to do when the IRS finally implements the battery mandate that they won’t qualify for.
 

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Just going to add my thought based on some clues from others in the forum. The $1500 increase was to cover part of the $3750 price drop VW is going to do when the IRS finally implements the battery mandate that they won’t qualify for.
Who knows, but if they are going to drop prices, I'd think they might wait until a new model year (like the Bolts got). But it also feels like any potential partial loss of tax credit is less important now because they can continue to pass on the $7500 on leases.
Edit: Actually I think I'm wrong on that about leases. I'm now reading something that a particular model can qualify for the commercial credit only if it doesn't qualify for the purchase credit.
 

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I'll eat my shirt if I'm wrong, but there's zero chance VW will lower ID.4 prices short of some miracle cost-reducing battery technology -- which will come, but will be rolled into the SSP architecture, not MEB.

As for our ID.4 and the MEB platform, we'll get lower priced units with lower capacity batteries, and perhaps a "price decrease" in the form of a higher capacity battery in a year or two, or maybe a slight bump in performance. BMW did this with their i3 with a 50% capacity increase in the 4th model year and another 30% bump in the 6th year, without any drastic changes to MSRP.

What Tesla did with respect to pricing is not going to be replicated with legacy auto, and frankly, I don't think VW could afford to if they wanted to.
 
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