You may be able to drive on ice with the OE all seasons, but what about all the other drivers around you without the years of experience? You need to be able to stop and turn quick and get out of the way of everyone behind you. We get many hundreds of bad crashes and deaths here after the first big snow every year. Sometimes I see damaged cars and semi trucks in the ditches every 2 miles!

More than 300 crashes occur during Colorado’s first big snow

Colorado’s first widespread measurable snow of the season sparked chaos across Front Range roads Thursday.

gazette.com

Don't wait to call the tire store about winter tires right after the first bit of snow, since they will then be out of stock of the best tires and backed up appointments for many weeks/months!

100-Car Pileup Closes Denver Street After First Snow | Weather.com

The pileup was one of several multivehicle crashes after the Denver metro area received 2 to 5 inches of snow overnight.

weather.com

 

Many steps can be taken to mitigate the dangers of driving in wintry conditions

These all sound like sacrifices, to me at least. A car has to have tires on it for every mile it drives. If my all seasons go 30K miles, and they cost me $1300, that’s $0.0433/mi. If I stretch them for 45K of driven miles because they sat in my garage for 15K during the winter, then they only cost me $0.0288/mi. If my snow tires cost $600 and get me 15K miles, but actually 45K driven miles, that’s $0.0133/mi.

So, the cost of having two sets costs me, if my assumptions work out, $0.0133+$0.0288 = $0.0422/mi, or, less than having only all seasons. Will these assumptions prove out? Who knows. Is it ball park enough to call it a wash? You betcha. Is it much better and less sacrificing to drive snow tires in Upstate NY in the winter? You betcha.

 

Another calculation could be running winter tires all year round and replace them every other year, probably, which would be more tire cost but no wheel or storage or switchover cost. Also they would not age out like your all seasons will.

Plus when you hit the gigantic 3” deep hailstorm outside of Telluride in July* you have the right tires.

*Personal experience.

 

Another calculation could be running winter tires all year round and replace them every other year, probably, which would be more tire cost but no wheel or storage or switchover cost. Also they would not age out like your all seasons will.

That is the way I convinced myself in the past when I ran winter tires all year. Here are the rough numbers if I did this now, and assuming the OE tires are ready to be replaced junk like my Alenzas were so they don't count:
1.Run winter all year (I do about 10k miles a year and am rough on tires with a 4wd steep dirt driveway):
The tires last 30k instead of 40k due to added summer wear (based on my doing this on my Jeep GC with same weight as ID.4) The tires cost $1000 including mount/balance. so that is 2 sets or $2000 over 60k. =3.3 cents a mile.
2. Run a sort of winter tire like Cross climate 2 all year
This one is a trade off that works if you don't get lots of snow and ice like me, they get slightly better miles of life than my X-ice winter in option 1. Too hard to compare the $ since I don't want the worse performance in both summer and winter. I would just use my X-ice all year round.
3.Don't buy extra wheels and swap tires 2x a year (fall and spring):
Costs $80 per time for mount + balance, 6 years adds $960 to the numbers I give in the next part is why I don't do this. And I still have to store the tires somewhere.
or 4.Run 2 sets of wheels:
Buy a 2nd set of wheels/tires (but that cost is mostly tires so doesn't mess up this cost compare since I consume the tires and the wheels I could resell at the end.) Then I swap myself 2x a year or take to the shop where they do it for free but either way takes 3 hours of my time per year. This costs $2000 over 80k since both the summer and winter tires last longer on average 40k. =2.5 cents a mile.
This saves $500 over 60k miles but using 12-18 hours of my time swapping or in the waiting room at the shop over 6 years. So its kind of a wash money wise if your count your time $25/hour or if you have to pay to store the 2nd set. I choose this option to have the best performance, safety (braking and handling), and long life both from the winter set and the summer set. (and tire life warranty is not lost as with option 1)

I like swapping my own tires, even though I am old its one of the few regular car maintenance things left I can do myself.

 

I'm with you on #4. Plus I can put the snow tires on at 9pm the night before the 1st time I need them each year 😅.

Highly recommend the rennstand, feels safer, and let's you use the jack at an angle in a tight garage and still fit everything on the pinch weld, which greatly sped up the process for me.

RENNSTAND

RennStand® is a groundbreaking, multi-patented car jack stand that redefines safety and convenience. Designed to lift and support your vehicle at the factory-designated jacking points, it combines compactness, adjustability, and strength in one lightweight, versatile solution.

rennstand.com

 

Its that time when the questions about winter tires appear. This year I found some good tests of rolling resistance (RR) between many winter tire choices. To compare the effect of the kg/t RR numbers below, there are multiple tests I have linked in other threads showing that the popular Michelin cross climate 2s gave 10-13% less range than stock and they measure 7.9kg/t RR. There are many tires that are even worse, likely since most people with ICE cars don't even care about or look at RR. The Continental WinterContact TS870P is the best I found at 6.49, I wonder if we can get them in the US? I bought Michelin X Ice Snow after much research since they are rated best for ice braking, and decent for loose snow, and they have been great through last winter. Testing from www.tyrereviews.com and www.alltyretests.com, too bad they are UK based and I can't find any US based testers who report RR numbers:

View attachment 28786
View attachment 28787

Thank you.
This type of thread should be always in the top of this forum and never let it fall down because of when was created or not many people are posting on this thread with time passing.
Because there are some valuable information on tires and people that are interested on what they are spending money when buying new tires.
I hope Forum administrator could make this happen or change how some threads on this forum are getting lost or fallen down because of no posting or age of the thread.
It should stick always to the top of VW ID Talk forum.
@SunWizard has posted many great threads on this forum and some other members also that should have this threads always saying at the top of this forum, irrelevant to age of thread or how often people post on the thread.

 

Because there are some valuable information on tires

I found even better info from the EU tyre database, so thanks go to the Germans who made this a law we can get better data to the whole world on RR and noise. I compiled this data in post#29 and added it to post#1 now for new people who get here and don't read that far down the thread. We had a proposed RR law and label by NHTSA way back in 2007, but I guess the fossil fuel lobby is just too strong here in the US and they stopped that.

https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.dot.gov/files/pria-rollingresistance.pdf

 

The people who ran the Honda Insight forum had an associated "encyclopedia" web page with all sorts of collected information about the car. I think that has gone away, but it was extremely useful.

 

Here's a Norwegian winter tire test that has some fuel consumption (Drivstofforbruk) info.

 

I'm with you on #4. Plus I can put the snow tires on at 9pm the night before the 1st time I need them each year 😅.

Highly recommend the rennstand, feels safer, and let's you use the jack at an angle in a tight garage and still fit everything on the pinch weld, which greatly sped up the process for me.

RENNSTAND

RennStand® is a groundbreaking, multi-patented car jack stand that redefines safety and convenience. Designed to lift and support your vehicle at the factory-designated jacking points, it combines compactness, adjustability, and strength in one lightweight, versatile solution.

rennstand.com

This is pretty cool. Did you use the universal pad they sell?

 

I have the universal pinch weld pad but it's an older version that has a 0.5 inch gap between supports. The new universal one is narrower. I haven't used mine on the ID4 yet, Just on my Audi Allroad.

 

Just wanted to mention that CrossClimate2 tires earn a better rolling resistance rating than the CrossClimate2 SUV tires listed in the original post. In 235/60R18 it’s an A rating vs a B rating in rolling resistance.

Still waiting for my 235/60R18 107H XL set.

 

Just wanted to mention that CrossClimate2 tires earn a better rolling resistance rating than the CrossClimate2 SUV tires listed in the original post. In 235/60R18 it’s an A rating vs a B rating in rolling resistance.

Looking up the CC2 in the EU database is tricky since they have many with different ratings from A to C, some with SUV after them, some are not CC2 but the original CC, some are different load rating than what we can get in US, some are only made for 1 OE brand. The CC2 marked A/W are C. The A rated ones are made for volvo and marked VOL, and I cannot find them in the US. So I used the SUV marked ones that are available in the US which are B. Let me know if you can find the VOL marked model rated A somewhere.

 

The ones I mentioned, that I ordered, are 235/60R18 107H, same specs as the VOL ones.

They don't get A unless marked on the sidewall VOL. The load/speed rating is not the only factor so you cannot compare US ones solely by that, its the other markings. Let us know what your sidewalls are marked, and hopefully its not A/W since those are C. The models I found in most sizes of CC2 at Tirerack are the A/W marked, rated C. Note many of the EU tires in that database like the VOL are not available in the US so we might not be able to find a rating. Edit: it would be interesting to find out what Volvo specs different for their OE tires. This is why I put the B on the chart, since the CC2 ratings for EU are all over the place even for the same sizes.

Edit: here is an article showing the EU CC2 tires are very different than US made ones we get: "In line with the European edition’s distinction as a made-for-market product (as opposed to an export of the US version that was launched last year), the Michelin CrossClimate 2 is manufactured exclusively in seven European plants, chiefly in France, Germany, Italy and Spain. " Maybe someday we get a US reviewer who tests our models for RR.

Michelin launches bespoke European CrossClimate 2 all-season tyre - Tyrepress

In 2015, Michelin disrupted the all-season tyre market with the launch of the CrossClimate - a tyre that approached year-round performance from a different direction. Now, following the launch its successor (the CrossClimate 2) in the US at the end of 2020, the world's largest tyremaker has...

www.tyrepress.com

 

Going to Michelin X-Ice over CrossClimate2 does not give a huge winter performance gain according to TireRack.com stats. Both are considered excellent. The CrossClimate2 has a 60k manufacturer warranty over the X-Ice 40k. I'm more inclined to go for the excellent A/S tire over the dedicated winter tires mainly because of the expense ($2k+), hassle moving them and storage space required.

Rolling resistance numbers are not yet mainstream and accuracy will come with more data and miles collected.

 

How does all this work with the ID4 having different tire sizes in the front vs rear? Has anybody bought a unified set of rims/tires for winter?

 

It works by sometimes the front have lower RR than rear, and sometimes its vice-versa, and you can see this difference on the chart I made on post #1. Yes I and many here have unified with 235/55R19 front tire size on all 4, its called "squared", many do it with 235/60R18 as well, but you cannot do it with the stock 20" rims since they are wider rims in back, see:

https://www.vwidtalk.com/search/350488/?q=squared&o=relevance

It gives many advantages, a big one being the tire mileage warranty is not cut in half as we get with staggered sizes, since they cannot be rotated.

 

Great thread, particularly the thoughts on running winters year-round which I had often wondered about but never thoroughly thought through like some of you have here. I will say that my OEM Kumho Crugens performed really well last winter...certainly better than others have shared about their Alenzas (setting the bar rather low I know). With only 8k on them I'll likely keep on through this season.

I will say that the overall "feel" of the ID4 in snow is by far the best of any vehicle I've driven (admittedly fewer than many since I tend to stick with vehicles 8-10 years before I switch). Greater weight? Center of gravity? Who knows, but I can only imagine what driving this with snows feels like.

And let's not forget something that doesn't get much attention until you need it--ground clearance. This was a main reason I opted for ID4 and how that wasn't a long decision-making process due to the near absence of EVs with decent ground clearance (at least at the time I was deciding 2-ish years ago). Hopefully this will improve. We need some EV versions of Honda CRV, Toyota Rav4, Subie Outback/Forester, and the like. Granted the clearance will negatively impact efficiency, but that's a tradeoff someone like me will gladly take for the added "utility" of clearance, not only for the occasional snow-plowing, but navigating off-pavement back roads with deep ruts, jutting rocks, etc.

 

Great thread, particularly the thoughts on running winters year-round which I had often wondered about but never thoroughly thought through like some of you have here. I will say that my OEM Kumho Crugens performed really well last winter...certainly better than others have shared about their Alenzas (setting the bar rather low I know). With only 8k on them I'll likely keep on through this season.

My wife has been running her Blizzaks all year around and the wear rate is not too bad. I wonder if there is any data showing winter tires wearing out fast, to calibrate it against the wear rate of, say, the Alenzas.

For example, if you expect your tires to last 40,000 miles, then a tire that only lasts 20,000 is a disappointment. But if you expect them to last 20,000 miles, then it's not a disappointment. Maybe the good winter tires last 20,000 miles even if you use them all year around?

 

I wonder if there is any data showing winter tires wearing out fast, to calibrate it against the wear rate of, say, the Alenzas.

Don't compare to Alenzas since they are in a class of their own at being the worst tires I have ever had both from wear and traction. I think the comparison is running winters all year or swapping. Continental says " It reduces the service life by as much as 60 percent. " but that is only during the summer. https://www.continental-tires.com/products/b2c/tire-knowledge/winter-tires-in-summer/
So that closely matches my experience doing this, and my figures from my post #46 where you can see the rest of my calculations on this topic:

The tires last 30k instead of 40k due to added summer wear (based on my doing this on my Jeep GC with same weight as ID.4) So its kind of a wash money wise if your count your time $25/hour or if you have to pay to store the 2nd set. I choose swapping to have the best performance.

It probably depends a lot on which winter tires you are comparing since they already vary by huge amounts from 0 (blizzaks) to 40k (X-ice) to 60k (Pirelli weatherActive) on mileage warranty.

 

Yeah the storage space factor is becoming an issue in my garage, currently four sets of wheels and tires.

 

Here is a new test all done on the same track showing a big 11% difference in EV range depending on tires. This did not include any winter tires. The Hankook iON won:
Here are the results:

1. Hankook iON evo AS: 263 Wh/mile
2. Goodyear EcoReady: 269 Wh/mile
3. Continental ProContact RX (T1): 272 Wh/mile
4. Goodyear ElectricDrive 2: 274 Wh/mile
5. Yokohama ADVAN Sport EV A/S: 274 Wh/mile
6. Pirelli P Zero (PZ4): 274 Wh/mile
7. Bridgestone Turanza EV: 276 Wh/mile
8. Michelin Pilot Sports 4S: 290 Wh/mile
9. Michelin Pilot Sports All Season 4: 292 Wh/mile

Here's how big of a difference tires can make on Tesla Model 3

A fascinating new test highlights the impressive difference EV-specific tires can make on the efficiency of a Tesla Model 3...

electrek.co

 

Small correction. Electrek said "They were all tested on the Model 3 with 18″ wheels except for the EcoReady, which was tested on 19″ and certainly negatively affected the results." The Tirerack video says the reverse - the default was 19", but for the EcoReady that ran on 18" wheels.

The combination of low rolling resistance and track performance (especially wet) would have me looking at the Pirellis, EcoReadys, or Continentals - roughly in that order.

 

I found this site that is an easier way to use the great EU tire info to look at rolling resistance, noise, wet grip, etc. on all tires sold in the EU that I used for the table in my OP:

Tyre 255 50 R19 | Discount price, free delivery - TyreLeader.ie

Tyres 255 50 R19 at discount prices on TyreLeader · Get free and fast delivery · Fitting services all over Ireland · Large selection of car tyres.

www.tyreleader.ie

Discussed in this thread starting at post#25, and I updated the table comparing many of them in my OP.

 

For my own sanity, how reliable is the info? I ask because I've heard that tires developed for different markets can be different. Specifically, the Michelin CC2's have lower rolling resistance in the EU than in the US. Weirdly, the site (which I guess is an Irish version of TireRack?) list some tires twice - sort of - they are not exactly the same. The CC2's below have different load ratings for the same size tire, and also different fuel economy ratings.

 

The CC2's below have different load ratings for the same size tire, and also different fuel economy ratings.

I think its reliable since they sell them and have them in stock to look at the labels, for some popular models like the CC2 they make 3 different EU versions. They also make a CC2 OE for Volvo in some sizes that has better rolling resistance. Too bad that in the US we get lower RR versions since we don't have a labeling law so they don't care about RR as much. This is shown by many good tests in the US showing 34 miles less range (better info than the C versus A rating) with CC2 like these good ones:

https://www.vwidtalk.com/posts/183482/

Our testing show more than 13+% losses per charge.
One of Michelin winter tires preformed better than CrossClimate 2.
I would stay away from this tire on any EV

Consumer reports who does good tests for rolling resistance showed the CC2's near the worst among many they tested recently.

Low-Rolling-Resistance Tires Can Save You Money at the Pump - Consumer Reports

Low-rolling-resistance tires can improve fuel economy. Consumer Reports' tests show how tires can affect fuel economy, and we rank the latest performance all-season tires by rolling resistance.

www.consumerreports.org

This explains why some EU reviews of the CC2 show much better RR since they get 3 options like the Volvo OE ones. This was debated way back in this thread, and there are now more US tests linked above showing we get the worse RR ones in the US.

 

I think its reliable since they sell them and have them in stock to look at the labels, for some popular models like the CC2 they make 3 different EU versions. They also make a CC2 OE for Volvo in some sizes that has better rolling resistance. Too bad that in the US we get lower RR versions since we don't have a labeling law so they don't care about RR as much. This is shown by many good tests in the US showing 34 miles less range (better info than the C versus A rating) with CC2 like these good ones:

Apologies. I wasn't clear. Reliable was a poor choice of words. I didn't mean to question the data itself, just the usefulness to purchasers in the US. EG: If we get a different CC2 than the Euro CC2, then we probably get different versions of other tires, and therefore the data may not be applicable to us. Even within Europe, the CC2 has efficiency ranging from B to D just on the few sizes I checked. Consumer Reports data is nice to have, but they only test select tires. I'd still love to see proper testing of the E_Range tires by Sailun (especially wet performance), but I haven't found any such test.