[Jupiter]

I’ve never agreed with CR on any of their recommendations so why start now? Their definition of reliability takes into account people’s ability to understand things … and European cars are notoriously harder to understand, even more so for people who don’t read manuals (somehow this seems more prevalent in America where there’s lower financial barriers to entry to become a driver). They’ve always had peculiar ways of doing things that hew more to tradition and required you to be “in the know” … that’s the charm after all! It goes along with being engineered with tighter tolerances and lower margins for error, that’s the flip side of better subjective quality and better handling. Their ICE cars were notorious for needing lots more fluid changes and specifically picky maintenance schedules and small failures costing a ton of money to fix. But it’s not just VW; BMW and Mercedes are also near the bottom of the list, as is Volvo. EVs, ironically, remove most of those issues - no elaborate differential and transmission fluid changes for people to skip, then complain when they fail, not to mention things like timing belts and needing to blast the carbon from the intake valves on the direct injection EA888 motors… but it brings us to their weak point - software. The trade off for going with pretty much any European EV is the software is spotty and their fixes take longer and updates are generally much less common and extensive, compared to the bespoke EV brands (Tesla, Rivian, Lucid). But that’s really true of all the traditional automakers - plenty of software issues with the GM Ultium EVs, same with Hyundai and Kia. But, the good thing is the vast majority of these software issues are minor annoyances rather than stranding events - and even better they cost nothing to fix! Definitely unlike ICE cars…

 

[Spin]

It has been my experience that my FE has had more issues than my previous 5 cars combined. It has spent more time at the dealer for recalls, software updates, and other matters than my previous 10 cars combined. It runs, drives, handles great, and has never left us stranded, but is it the least reliable? Maybe not in the traditional sense, but the ratio of driving it to spending time attending to it has been way too high, compared to my previous vehicles.

 

[Froggy]

It would be interesting to see a comparison between the ID4 and other EV models. Breaking it down into infotainment/software problems, battery failure, shear service department incompetence/indifference and bat poop crazy design choices.

 

[Enzeder]

Eh, statistics are always a bit messy. At least CR give you info on their process. And you can compare surveys to see if there are discrepancies. If one survey rates a car or brand 25th while another rates them 30th... process differences. But if one survey rates a brand 3rd and another rates them 30th, something is amiss.

I might not treat CR or JD as absolute deciders, but they are some of the few resources of aggregated data I have access to, and therefore are more meaningful than a collection of anecdotes - to me. Most other brands have the same issues to deal with as VW. Chevy, Hyundai, BMW, etc all have tech heavy cars. Surveys are a bit like the "wisdom of the crowds" which should help reduce the effect of the fanatic few and make for reasonable comparisons.

If someone has a better source of reliability data, I'd love to know.

 

[Spin]

TrueDelta -- Real Car Owners Driving Real Car Information

This community of 103,000+ car owners shares first-hand, real-world car information and experiences about reliability, fuel economy, repairs and more.

www.truedelta.com

This site has been dormant for the last few years and doesn't even include the ID series in its reliability stats, but it is interesting for older cars.

 

[Fahrer]

I subscribe to CR and I do participate in their surveys. Overall, I appreciate their findings but the problem with big ticket items like cars, major appliances etc. is that by the time they publish the results the manufacturer may have replaced that model with a new model so you might not find it when shopping.

As an example, their most recent summary for the ID.4 is for previous models without the major updates to the UI or the power and efficiency. They still list the range and other significant factors for the pre 2024 model.

I have also criticized them in my feedback for spending too much time on things like food items and other low value items where I can easily get similar information or the risks are lower like, for example, what's the best breakfast cereal. Really?

A couple of articles over the years made me shake my head;

1. Years ago they reported on insecticides used on produce. They were quite negative about it and suggested we should buy organic. But, in a sidebar they stated that after washing non-organic produce the insecticide levels were comparable to the organically grown produce. At least they admitted it in the smaller print.

2. More recently, there was a CR article on chemical contamination in the packaged foods we buy. They acknowledged the much of the contamination enters the food from the environment ( animals, pesticides and other pollutants such as phthalate plasticizers and BPA) rather than food processing or the packaging. They then began to advise against buying food packaged in plastics or storing food in containers at home made from plastics. The problem is that the plastics widely used for packaging foods on the store shelf and at home are generally cellulosics, polypropylene, polyethylene or PET, none of which contain either of the two chemicals they focused on. Those plastics are relatively inert. They should be concerned about polycarbonate or plasticized PVC holding food at elevated temperatures (e.g.in microwaves) as they contain BPA and phthalate plasticizers, respectively. Oh well.

But, overall, CR does a pretty good job. Their surveys come from real users and owners and the accept no advertising. For me the negatives come from their sometimes detailed analysis of the data.

I have one more funny story. When the VW Rabbit arrived in the US ( 1975?). That car and the AMC Pacer ( really, the Pacer?) were essentially tied for the best new small models based on their tests.

The VW got the nod only because of a bit better mpg.

(Edited for spelling. I need to pay more attention!)

 

[Roamer105]

It all depends on how you count reliability.

If you count each software bug encountered each time it's encountered as a separate failure, then there's no doubt in my mind that my VW ID.4 was the least-reliable vehicle I've ever owned (and by a huge margin). I'd encounter the same software bugs day after day after day with a new one thrown in every few weeks or months.*

If you count each displayed error message or event where the car became momentarily undriveable as a separate failure, then the ID.4 is still pretty awful (and still probably my least-reliable car ever).

If you only count failures that needed the workshop to correct them as failures, then maybe the ID.4 isn't an unreliable car. But somewhere in that equation, you've got to also weight the fact that when the car did fail in a way that needed the workshop, the repairs ALWAYS took at least “days” and occasionally, “weeks, whether the problem was time to diagnose correctly, time to obtain repair parts, or total time to effect an effective repair. And even by that measure, my ID.4 was probably my least-reliable car ever.

But no matter how you measure it, CR isn't wrong about the ID.4's tragically-awful reliability if you simply want a car that gets you where you want to go when you want to go.

* Many of you claim to have never seen many of the software bugs that I encountered daily. That can only be because you weren't noticing them as they occurred because they weren't unique to my ID.4, they were endemic to the entire fleet.

There are plenty DEFICIENCIES in the infotainment system, let alone the snail pace speed of the processor. But to me those are neither bugs nor reliability issues. They may feed into customer satisfaction, but the car is still doing the job it was designed for.

 

[Roamer105]

Yes, this scoring method is one reason I ended my CR subscription. I guess it was a great tire review platform when needed, but even then, they rate the tires they purchased... nothing more.

As for reliability, I for one believe they should rate "reliability" as "bricked on the side of the freeway". The remaining metrics should be categorize less heavily and more towards nuisances. I'm looking at the massive GM V8 and Toyota V6 recalls for example, where it's laughable to compare a legitimate breakdown to an intermittent software bug.

Personally, 50k miles and 3 years in, I have yet to lose confidence in the ID4. No worry about a catastrophic failure while on a road trip. Reporting from my tiny universe of course.

I have 56K on my 2023 PRO S AWD. Zero issues and the only reason it went to the shop once for a day was for the stupid door handle recall and software update (both done together).

 

[waldo22]

My 1978 Rabbit Diesel which I purchased new was excellent. I put 70k miles on it before selling it at a good price for me. Only oil changes and a set of front brakes. 55-65 mpg. Excellent experience. Even better, I had this during the second gas shortage of the 1970s. Everyone was waiting on line to get gas except for me.

The modern TDIs, at least through ALH, were so much better than those older ones. I had an '81 Rabbit pickup, which I loved, but it was an absolute dog with 49 HP, and then I let someone borrow it and it threw a rod right through the low pressure side of the crankcase.

It did make me feel big driving it though

 

[Fahrer]

The modern TDIs, at least through ALH, were so much better than those older ones. I had an '81 Rabbit pickup, which I loved, but it was an absolute dog with 49 HP, and then I let someone borrow it and it threw a rod right through the low pressure side of the crankcas

It did make me feel big driving it though

The modern TDIs, at least through ALH, were so much better than those older ones. I had an '81 Rabbit pickup, which I loved, but it was an absolute dog with 49 HP, and then I let someone borrow it and it threw a rod right through the low pressure side of the crankcase.

It did make me feel big driving it though

That model was made in PA. I also had a 1980 Rabbit Diesel with A/C. It was also made in PA. It was slow with reduced mpg and was poorly made. VW made the mistake of buying an old Chrysler plant, hiring ex Chrysler employees and sourcing components locally. My worst VW ever. After tolerating it for two years I sold it and bought a 1982 Jetta. That was a great car!

 

[Fahrer]

The modern TDIs, at least through ALH, were so much better than those older ones. I had an '81 Rabbit pickup, which I loved, but it was an absolute dog with 49 HP, and then I let someone borrow it and it threw a rod right through the low pressure side of the crankcase.

It did make me feel big driving it though

When you started them up in winter they sounded like the garbage truck for a few minutes.

 

[TXZag]

It has been my experience that my FE has had more issues than my previous 5 cars combined. It has spent more time at the dealer for recalls, software updates, and other matters than my previous 10 cars combined. It runs, drives, handles great, and has never left us stranded, but is it the least reliable? Maybe not in the traditional sense, but the ratio of driving it to spending time attending to it has been way too high, compared to my previous vehicles.

I think that what you describe is attributable to a couple of things. First, there’s the move to a more tech-centric design philosophy and the inherent learning curve of rolling out a first-of-a-kind (FOAK). Rolling out FOAKs in nearly every industry are typically accompanied with “adjustments”. How many recalls have Tesla had, and they are reluctant to issue recalls, unless pressed by the government to do so. Nevertheless, I fully expected growing pains when I ordered my 1st. Ed. But in spite of my fears, the car has been really good. I also think a lot of people are hard on VW because a number of YouTube influencers really punished VW with their reviews, a lot of which seemed like influencers just parroting/repeating what other guys have said. For instance, I heard way too much about the haptic controls and only two switches for the four windows. Enough, already!

I’d buy another VW EV in a heartbeat, but being retired now with just me and the wife, the BUZZ is just too much car and with that, the price tag hard to justify. I was really hoping they’d bring the ID.7 to the US, but I guess they decided that it doesn’t fit with the US fixation on trucks and SUVs. So either I go with another ID.4 with marginal gains, or go to a different manufacturer. I am currently looking at the BMW i4, but I doubt I’ll do anything anytime soon.

 

[karakoylu]

Yes, VW has serious quality issues. My daughter owns a 2019 Tiguan; it has so many issues with heater and A/C from the day one. I own a 2024 ID.4 Pro S. It also has issues with the charging port flap. I will take it to the local dealer for door handle and battery recalls next week. I had to wait five months to get an appointment. The bottom line is that I do not feel very comfortable to drive this vehicle because I fear something will go wrong any moment. This vehicle has been in production for almost 6 years now. Why can't VW take care of these problems?

 

[Roamer105]

They are all the same: If they can save 5 cents, they will and consider it more important than potential quality consequences. It is much the same as insurance companies work. It is all based on statistically anticipated losses versus actual gains. It's pathetic.

 

[Spin]

I think that what you describe is attributable to a couple of things. First, there’s the move to a more tech-centric design philosophy and the inherent learning curve of rolling out a first-of-a-kind (FOAK). Rolling out FOAKs in nearly every industry are typically accompanied with “adjustments”. How many recalls have Tesla had, and they are reluctant to issue recalls, unless pressed by the government to do so. Nevertheless, I fully expected growing pains when I ordered my 1st. Ed. But in spite of my fears, the car has been really good. I also think a lot of people are hard on VW because a number of YouTube influencers really punished VW with their reviews, a lot of which seemed like influencers just parroting/repeating what other guys have said. For instance, I heard way too much about the haptic controls and only two switches for the four windows. Enough, already!

I’d buy another VW EV in a heartbeat, but being retired now with just me and the wife, the BUZZ is just too much car and with that, the price tag hard to justify. I was really hoping they’d bring the ID.7 to the US, but I guess they decided that it doesn’t fit with the US fixation on trucks and SUVs. So either I go with another ID.4 with marginal gains, or go to a different manufacturer. I am currently looking at the BMW i4, but I doubt I’ll do anything anytime soon.

I've had many FOAK vehicles, and none have spent as much time at the dealer as my ID.4. Not even a fraction of the time. My wife has joked that maybe they will start charging me rent. As an FE owner with a very low vin, I expected some issues, but I was surprised at how many there were before I was updated to 3.1. I realize that many folks have not had the same adventure that I had, but I was very disappointed with the experience.

 

[Fahrer]

I've had many FOAK vehicles, and none have spent as much time at the dealer as my ID.4. Not even a fraction of the time. My wife has joked that maybe they will start charging me rent. As an FE owner with a very low vin, I expected some issues, but I was surprised at how many there were before I was updated to 3.1. I realize that many folks have not had the same adventure that I had, but I was very disappointed with the experience.

It seems you might have made the same mistake I made when I got my 2008 BMW 535, a model with a new twin turbo engine design. Nothing but problems, spending lots of time in their customer lounge and driving loaner 3 series loaners with awful run flats. It often doesn't go well with first year models. I was happy to jump it when the lease was over.

 

[Roamer105]

I've had many FOAK vehicles, and none have spent as much time at the dealer as my ID.4. Not even a fraction of the time. My wife has joked that maybe they will start charging me rent. As an FE owner with a very low vin, I expected some issues, but I was surprised at how many there were before I was updated to 3.1. I realize that many folks have not had the same adventure that I had, but I was very disappointed with the experience.

Yet, there are a vast majority of ID.4 on the road, just like mine (56K miles), that have been absolutely reliable with zero issues short of the door handles and the software upgrade. Other than some reliability issues for a small percentage, we all have our own gripes about what features are missing and what should be different. Those issues are pervasive throughout all brands and models of cars. EVs represent a paradigm shift and that is very demanding for an owner. So, much of the griping is understandable.

 

[Phoenix72]

I must have drawn the short stick!
-The very 1st software update at the dealer bricked the car. Had to wait for almost 2 weeks to get it fixed.
-One Battery Module replacement! Again, had to waited for over 2 weeks for parts.
-Now the car is in the shop for Rear Motor Assy replacement! No estimate of when the parts will arrive!
- Still have 3 Recalls/Service Campaigns (Brake Module Software, Door Handle and Software update). No estimate of when the parts will be available for these neither!
Based in these unfortunate events, the Id4 is one of the least reliable car for me!

 

[ChrisL]

In an example of impeccable timing Auto Buyer's Guide/Alex on Autos has just posted a 30-minute video on why you should take CR's ratings with a grain of salt. Not to say they're wrong about VW or the ID.4, but if you're looking at their data on brands other than Toyota/Subaru/Lexus, Honda, and HKG you probably aren't getting data based on big samples because CR members who respond to the survey don't seem to buy very many cars sold outside those brands.

 

[Fahrer]

In an example of impeccable timing Auto Buyer's Guide/Alex on Autos has just posted a 30-minute video on why you should take CR's ratings with a grain of salt. Not to say they're wrong about VW or the ID.4, but if you're looking at their data on brands other than Toyota/Subaru/Lexus, Honda, and HKG you probably aren't getting data based on big samples because CR members who respond to the survey don't seem to buy very many cars sold outside those brands.

There are always limitations when it comes to studies or surveys on any subject matter. This video points out a number of those limitations with CR surveys. I have also noticed that some of the reports include information that is obsolete or certain models I am interested in getting information on are not included.

But, what's a good alternative? Social media? Product forums? Google ratings? I don't think so. But having said that these can offer additional inputs to one's decision making process just like CR.

As always , one must evaluate numerous sources of information to get a view from different perspectives/angles and hopefully weed out data that is simply repeated or copied from other sources. CR is just one of those sources.

As an example, I reviewed numerous sources to find that I definitely did not want a VW Golf with what seemed to be leaky, creaky sunroofs. I saw that CR reported reliability issues with the car but not much detail so what was the real issue? This is anecdotal but the 2016 Golf ( base model with no sunroof) has been extremely reliable for me and now my son for nine years - only oil changes, brake fluid changes, one set of front brakes, one spark plug change, one set of tires, cabin filter and wiper blades. No repairs, just wear items. Not bad for a car with a poor reliability rating. How does Toyota beat that?

So, I largely agree with what was in the video but all studies and surveys are flawed.