[Stinsy]

I am leaning towards getting one, just for the sake of having it. Obviously it will help, may not recover the money or pay for itself over the life of vehicle by savings in energy. But this is the only chance I will have to add it also just in case that 8-10% extra efficiency may help me get out of tricky situation. If not $1500, it may recover about $1000 over the long run and god knows if software update can make it more efficient or if they have already made some mechanical changes required to make it more efficient for Canadian climate. It used to be offered as standard equipment before, which means it must be working.

When costing things you should be aware of where energy prices could go!

When I placed the order for my iD4 electricity was 15p/kWh, now it looks like it could be over 70p/kWh by the time my iD4 is delivered!

 

[Bcakes]

I am leaning towards getting one, just for the sake of having it. Obviously it will help, may not recover the money or pay for itself over the life of vehicle by savings in energy. But this is the only chance I will have to add it also just in case that 8-10% extra efficiency may help me get out of tricky situation. If not $1500, it may recover about $1000 over the long run and god knows if software update can make it more efficient or if they have already made some mechanical changes required to make it more efficient for Canadian climate. It used to be offered as standard equipment before, which means it must be working.

I've seen many people comment about getting a heat pump for the sake of having one, (for performance, weight , resale...)

But I am curious of anyone who has real experience with Canadian winters (ie -25 C), and wether the heat pump can give substantial heat in the winter, and cold enough air in the summer, It seems pointless to me if I can't get sufficient heat and A/C when I need it, I'm not one of the early adopters who will willingly freeze my tukkus off bundled up in coats and scarves to try and "hyper mile " my ID4.

My personal experience with home heat pumps has been very positive, but they are large units, and heat and cool slowly, they don't generate scalding heat like an ICE would put out.
I'm curious, and am still on the fence in regards to checking off the heat pump option box. (when the time comes...)
Still waiting to hear from VW Canada, dealer said to expect an Email...soon...

 

[Bcakes]

Hello Everyone,

Most probably I am going to configure my car which got converted to 2023 from 2022 from 2021 early next week.

I loved the way Canadians are allowed to configure 2023 ID4

This is what I am going for

• ID4 Pro AWD ($52,995)
• Black Exterior
• Stone Interior
• Optional glass roof ($1250)
• Heat Pump ($1500) <== Confused about this

There is also an option to add 20" wheels($1000), I am not a fan of 20" wheels so I am not going to add that but I am having second thought about Heat Pump. Statement package is $5000, it includes leatherette massaging seats, subwoofer, 360 camera, folding mirrors etc. but I think I will pass on that.

As per Sales Manager at my dealership, first few (unknown number) of cars will come equipped with Heat Pump by default for people who already have their orders in line at no extra cost but if you want guaranteed Heat pump, you have to add it at extra cost. Else rely on luck.

From what I have heard on this forum, ID4 heat pumps are not as efficient as they claimed to be and in Europe they got some refund as well who added it at an extra cost. I normally dont do road trips in winter and every day driving of about 100 km (65 miles) is way more than enough to go on a single charge. Electricity rates are also not crazy here so I dont see savings of more than 1500$ + 13% tax = 1700$. Heat pump will also add some weight reducing range further.

When I checked my daily commute on ABRP it shows same battery consumption as shown below for my every day trip

-25'C (-13f) Same with or without heat pump
-20 'C (-4f) around 5% less battery usage with heat pump
-5'c (23f) around 8% less battery usage with heat pump
+5'C (41f) around 8% less battery usage with heat pump
+15C (60f) Same with or without heat pump

We have -20c to +5c weather for about 4 months. Do you think Heat pump is worth to add?

I am curious, in regards to this...

When I checked my daily commute on ABRP it shows same battery consumption as shown below for my every day trip

-25'C (-13f) Same with or without heat pump
-20 'C (-4f) around 5% less battery usage with heat pump
-5'c (23f) around 8% less battery usage with heat pump
+5'C (41f) around 8% less battery usage with heat pump
+15C (60f) Same with or without heat pump

Is the heat generated the same, or is the resistance heater quicker and hotter on really cold days?

Cheers!

 

[Stinsy]

I am curious, in regards to this...

When I checked my daily commute on ABRP it shows same battery consumption as shown below for my every day trip

-25'C (-13f) Same with or without heat pump
-20 'C (-4f) around 5% less battery usage with heat pump
-5'c (23f) around 8% less battery usage with heat pump
+5'C (41f) around 8% less battery usage with heat pump
+15C (60f) Same with or without heat pump

Is the heat generated the same, or is the resistance heater quicker and hotter on really cold days?

Cheers!

That's good! It is between -5℃ and 5℃ from October to March where I live!

 

[Nycturne]

I am curious, in regards to this...

When I checked my daily commute on ABRP it shows same battery consumption as shown below for my every day trip

-25'C (-13f) Same with or without heat pump
-20 'C (-4f) around 5% less battery usage with heat pump
-5'c (23f) around 8% less battery usage with heat pump
+5'C (41f) around 8% less battery usage with heat pump
+15C (60f) Same with or without heat pump

Is the heat generated the same, or is the resistance heater quicker and hotter on really cold days?

Cheers!

The key bit is the COP of the heater vs heat pump. Electric heat has a COP of 1, while AC units can get quite a bit higher. In really cold temperatures though, the heat pump has a hard time pulling any heat energy out of the air, dropping the COP below 1, and the resistive heater will take over. It all depends on the specific curve of the unit in question. It’d be worse with R1234yf as the refrigerant in low temps, for example.

I shared some details specifically about R744‘s weaknesses in warmer temperatures, but those more apply in hot and humid cases. So unless you are road tripping down into the lower US often, I don’t think you’ll see much difference in efficiency on the heat pump (using R744) vs without it (using R1234yf).

 

[serious.sam.4all]

I've seen many people comment about getting a heat pump for the sake of having one, (for performance, weight , resale...)

But I am curious of anyone who has real experience with Canadian winters (ie -25 C), and wether the heat pump can give substantial heat in the winter, and cold enough air in the summer, It seems pointless to me if I can't get sufficient heat and A/C when I need it, I'm not one of the early adopters who will willingly freeze my tukkus off bundled up in coats and scarves to try and "hyper mile " my ID4.

My personal experience with home heat pumps has been very positive, but they are large units, and heat and cool slowly, they don't generate scalding heat like an ICE would put out.
I'm curious, and am still on the fence in regards to checking off the heat pump option box. (when the time comes...)
Still waiting to hear from VW Canada, dealer said to expect an Email...soon...

Main point of having heat pump is not just heating the cabin, with resistive heaters its normally instant but with EVs you need it to heat up cabin and also Heat up the cold battery.
Cold battery needs heated fluid circulated to heat it up enhancing its performance, as cold batteries have very high internal resistance. Imagine how much heat/energy do you need to bring big slab of ice at -25'c to +15'c.

If you go with articles, they say generating heat with Heat pump is 300% more efficient than generating same amount of Heat with resistive heaters. So, just for an example if your car is using 3kWh energy to heat battery and cabin, with Heat pump it will just use 1 kWh. ID4 has Heated steering wheel and Heated seats, combining that with a winter coat, may be enough for that hypermiling but as I said earlier you will still need some battery to generate enough heat to heat up the battery. Once battery is heated it will not require much energy to stay warm as using battery also generates some heat, so it may be ok on a long trip but each short trip consumes a lot of power, every time it heats up the battery.

Issue with it being inefficient at below -15'c and almost not efficient at all below -25'c is because, heat pumps are like reverse air conditioners. They take heat from the environment and pass it to heat things up but at -25'c there is not much heat in the environment and pump has to work very hard to get heat from the environment, that consumes a lot of battery, making it worthless, on temperature higher than +15'c and above you don't need to use that much heat to Heat up, so again its worthless.

Heat pumps are most efficient around 10 to -10'c where it can perform very well. I think this temperatures are what we have in Southern ON/BC/QC which may make it efficient except for a month, during peak of the winter.

 

[GriefHammer]

I've ordered MY23 with a heat pump out here in BC.

 

[serious.sam.4all]

Thanks everyone for your help. Eventually I added it just for the sake of adding as you can not go wrong with efficiency improvements. It may not be 300% efficient but better than 0.

 

[GriefHammer]

Also helps with resale value should you choose to sell later.

 

[Perry Rhodan]

For context.

We drove ours to Kelowna this summer during one of the heat waves. Temps at the Kelowna Electrify Canada Kelowna was 40c and the car maintained a cool 21c without any issues, even after the hp lowered the cabin output to care for the battery that was reaching 46c during the charge. The 400km drive back to vancouver in that heat averaged 18kw per 100km so I would say the heat pump seems quite efficient.

For cold weather, the coldest we experienced was -15c and again the car was able to maintain comfortable temps at all time.

 

[serious.sam.4all]

For context.

We drove ours to Kelowna this summer during one of the heat waves. Temps at the Kelowna Electrify Canada Kelowna was 40c and the car maintained a cool 21c without any issues, even after the hp lowered the cabin output to care for the battery that was reaching 46c during the charge. The 400km drive back to vancouver in that heat averaged 18kw per 100km so I would say the heat pump seems quite efficient.

For cold weather, the coldest we experienced was -15c and again the car was able to maintain comfortable temps at all time.

You guys are lucky in BC, here in Ontario it may go around to -25 'c and few days around -35'c with windchill.

Out of curiosity, Will Heat Pump help with Cooling as well? I thought Compressor is used for Cooling needs and Heat Pump strictly for Heating.

 

[stephen.kormilo]

You guys are lucky in BC, here in Ontario it may go around to -25 'c and few days around -35'c with windchill.

Out of curiosity, Will Heat Pump help with Cooling as well? I thought Compressor is used for Cooling needs and Heat Pump strictly for Heating.

The Heat Pump compressor operates for both heating and cooling. In basic terms, the difference is the direction of the refrigerant which flows in one direction for cooling and the reverse direction for heating.

 

[serious.sam.4all]

The Heat Pump compressor operates for both heating and cooling. In basic terms, the difference is the direction of the refrigerant which flows in one direction for cooling and the reverse direction for heating.

That is really interesting, So do they substitute regular compressor for HeatPump? If not, what regular compressor is used for when Heat pump is installed?

 

[stephen.kormilo]

That is really interesting, So do they substitute regular compressor for HeatPump? If not, what regular compressor is used for when Heat pump is installed?

There is only one compressor installed for an A/C only system or a Heat Pump system. I don't know the details, but I suspect that the compressor used in a Heat Pump system is different than that of an A/C only system, although, theoretically, an A/C compressor could be used in a Heat Pump system.

 

[Nycturne]

That is really interesting, So do they substitute regular compressor for HeatPump? If not, what regular compressor is used for when Heat pump is installed?

A/C and Heat Pumps are using the same physics, and can use the same compressors so long as the refrigerant is the same. Think about how a window A/C works in a home: one side is indoors, and the other side is outdoors. The refrigerant loop is setup so that the coil indoors pulls energy from the air and into the refrigerant, and the coil that’s outdoors releases it back into the air. So it moves energy from the air in your room, and into the outdoors. What happens if you install an A/C flipped around such that the “exhaust” is now inside? You are now moving energy from the outdoor air into the indoor air. This “flip” is the principle of a heat pump.

The complexity comes in to be able to do this sort of flip without physically flipping the unit itself around. The refrigerant needs to be able to flow “backwards” through the loop. This is usually the job of a valve system where different valves are closed and opened to direct the flow through the loop through the compressor, heat exchanger and coils in the order expected to produce heating or cooling as needed.

The other difference that comes into play here with the ID.4 is that R744 has somewhat different design considerations due to the higher pressures used. But it’s a more effective carrier of heat when operating at lower temperatures, which is what a heat pump wants, since you are trying to extract energy from colder air, where there is less energy available in the first place. You can use R1234yf in a heat pump, but the minimum useful operating temperature would be higher, meaning you’d be using the resistive heater more often, which isn’t ideal.

There is only one compressor installed for an A/C only system or a Heat Pump system. I don't know the details, but I suspect that the compressor used in a Heat Pump system is different than that of an A/C only system, although, theoretically, an A/C compressor could be used in a Heat Pump system.

The compressor that is used with the heat pump differs in that it has thicker walls and the like for the higher pressures. If both versions used the same refrigerant, they would be using the same compressor, more likely than not. The valve system and how it integrates with the heat exchanger (and the dryer being more integrated with the heat exchanger rather than the condenser coil) are probably the biggest differences. I suspect outside the valve system, the rest of the changes are due to R774, rather than because it’s a heat pump.

 

[PANZERidIV]

I would try and predict the Canadian winters in the next 5-10 years. What do you think the weather will be doing? Here we just the closest Hurricane to San Diego in the last 50 years.

 

[serious.sam.4all]

I would try and predict the Canadian winters in the next 5-10 years. What do you think the weather will be doing? Here we just the closest Hurricane to San Diego in the last 50 years.

Its all over the place, here in Ontario we had very dry and hot summer but they are predicting crazy winter this time

 

[PANZERidIV]

They are predicting the winter in Canada already? What source are they using? Please don’t say Farmer’s Almanac! 👩‍🌾

 

[serious.sam.4all]

They are predicting the winter in Canada already? What source are they using? Please don’t say Farmer’s Almanac! 👩‍🌾

Ha ha ha.. currently they are the ones who started predicting. New forecasts will come later

 

[Franky]

My local dealer is automatically adding the heat pump to every model sold. If the buyer doesn't want it, buyer needs to prove him wrong lol. Wierd how those who don't have a heat pump want one yet those that can have it question its use.
Wise choice is to get with the heat pump in Canada.