[serious.sam.4all]

Your welcome,

I guess it might be easier to sell in the future. Also, I would not be surprise that non-heatpump car have a longer ETA. VW will probably prioritize AWD heatpump cars. Cabin heat up would be around the same (If it's like a house heatpump, the non-heatpump would be faster by 20 to 40 seconds - not relevant IMHO)

As far as I know, they are just producing AWD as of today and for next some time as well so if you have AWD, chances are you have priority, at least initially. My dealer verbally said initially all models will come with Heat pump only. There are two take aways from this. Either heat pump will be in all models regardless if it was selected as an option or not, or only models with optional heat pump will be produced first and will be given higher priority. I remember, initially VW QC website in french had that line, something like heat pumps will be added till December. They did not confirm, as an option or not.

One more thing as US rebate rules have changed, they are still going to give $7500 rebate to those who get their cars in 2022 as long as final assembly is done in US. 2023 models quality for that, not 2022.
So I am guessing all orders till Dec 31, 2022 will go to US so that they can deliver max number of cars possible to get advantage of the rebate. Tesla did the same to Ontarians when they scrapped rebate

 

[Franky]

As far as I know, they are just producing AWD as of today and for next some time as well so if you have AWD, chances are you have priority, at least initially. My dealer verbally said initially all models will come with Heat pump only. There are two take aways from this. Either heat pump will be in all models regardless if it was selected as an option or not, or only models with optional heat pump will be produced first and will be given higher priority. I remember, initially VW QC website in french had that line, something like heat pumps will be added till December. They did not confirm, as an option or not.

Some RWD have been delivered in QC and ALL 2021-22 come with heat pump by default. Starting with 2023, buyers may take it or not.

 

[serious.sam.4all]

Some RWD have been delivered in QC and ALL 2021-22 come with heat pump by default. Starting with 2023, buyers may take it or not.

Yeah for 2021 and 2022 all Canadian cars had it as standard equipment. Now starting with 2023 it is paid upgrade.

 

[Koldar]

As far as I know, they are just producing AWD as of today and for next some time as well so if you have AWD, chances are you have priority, at least initially. My dealer verbally said initially all models will come with Heat pump only. There are two take aways from this. Either heat pump will be in all models regardless if it was selected as an option or not, or only models with optional heat pump will be produced first and will be given higher priority. I remember, initially VW QC website in french had that line, something like heat pumps will be added till December. They did not confirm, as an option or not.

One more thing as US rebate rules have changed, they are still going to give $7500 rebate to those who get their cars in 2022 as long as final assembly is done in US. 2023 models quality for that, not 2022.
So I am guessing all orders till Dec 31, 2022 will go to US so that they can deliver max number of cars possible to get advantage of the rebate. Tesla did the same to Ontarians when they scrapped rebate

I live in the province of QC and when I asked my dealer if they could guarantee me a delivery before the end of years, they said no. Just for perspective, I added my name to my dealers list in april of 2021. I don't know if it was a sale pressure thing but the salesman said that he would not be surprised that if I did not check the HP, I would have a 2023 delivered at the beginning of 2024. I laughed at him and said that I was a patient man.

 

[serious.sam.4all]

I live in the province of QC and when I asked my dealer if they could guarantee me a delivery before the end of years, they said no. Just for perspective, I added my name to my dealers list in april of 2021. I don't know if it was a sale pressure thing but the salesman said that he would not be surprised that if I did not check the HP, I would have a 2023 delivered at the beginning of 2024. I laughed at him and said that I was a patient man.

Yeah no one can/will guarantee anything these days, dealers are in great situation, they don't even need to make any true/false promises as they know, if customer will reject delivery there are 10 people in line who will pay above asking to get rejected car right there without waiting, making them more profitable.

My sales agent did not push me to get Heat Pump but I added it willingly as I wanted to get one. I just pointed out what some people reported on QC website and kind of similar message was conveyed though my dealer.

I am patient too, I ordered mine on 19th Feb 2022 and I was told delivery around 12-15 months and I am ok till next summer. Some of my personal situations have changed recently and that makes me get a car sooner, but I can wait till my promised delivery date, I will start loosing my patience after feb 2023. The way things are progressing, I feel like I should have the car around that time but lets see dont want to have any false hopes.

 

[RLC]

Thanks everyone for their comments in this thread.

How I'm calculating the payback period.

Will be using shore power for scheduled cabin heating,

For non heat pump, Expecting cost per KM OF 3 cents. This is based 20 Kwhr per 100 km plus 10% for charging overhead and a electrical rate of 14 cents per kwhr.

For heat pump, assuming 10% efficiency gains, then the savings would be 0.3 cents per Km. Cost of heat pump is $1500 . So the payback period would be 500,000 kms.

Since the the 10% efficiency gains only apply for cooler periods of the year, assume 6 months, the payback period is now 1,000,000 Km.

 

[serious.sam.4all]

Thanks everyone for their comments in this thread.

How I'm calculating the payback period.

Will be using shore power for scheduled cabin heating,

For non heat pump, Expecting cost per KM OF 3 cents. This is based 20 Kwhr per 100 km plus 10% for charging overhead and a electrical rate of 14 cents per kwhr.

For heat pump, assuming 10% efficiency gains, then the savings would be 0.3 cents per Km. Cost of heat pump is $1500 . So the payback period would be 500,000 kms.

Since the the 10% efficiency gains only apply for cooler periods of the year, assume 6 months, the payback period is now 1,000,000 Km.

I agree with you, if you are getting heat pump to save money, simply don't. Also it is not just $1500, (1500 + Tax) * (8ish% interest over 7 years). I think it will roughly come around $2150.

As long as electricity prices don't rise more than 4 times like Europe, you will not save any money by adding a Heat Pump. It may even add extra weight reducing range slightly.

Get Heat Pump if you don't want to worry about or really want that 10/20% extra range in winter (debatable, not proven) and may be a bit higher resale value if you are thinking to sell yours (again its pay higher, get higher, no benefit).

 

[Koldar]

Also, VW might have been greedy on the price of the option. A heatpump is basically an AC with valves to reverse the process (and a better compressor, etc...).

So... the heatpump replace the AC. If a car AC is around 1000 $, VW is basicaly charging us 1000 + 1500 = 2500 + tax. A basic house heatpump that work down to -25c costed (2 years ago when I bought mine) around 3500 + tax $ installation included (they can cost a lot more tho).

IMO, 2500 is way more than what it's worth / cost.

 

[Atlant]

Also, VW might have been greedy on the price of the option. A heatpump is basically an AC with valves to reverse the process (and a better compressor, etc...).

So... the heatpump replace the AC. If a car AC is around 1000 $, VW is basicaly charging us 1000 + 1500 = 2500 + tax. A basic house heatpump that work down to -25c costed (2 years ago when I bought mine) around 3500 + tax $ installation included (they can cost a lot more tho).

IMO, 2500 is way more than what it's worth / cost.

As has been mentioned in other replies, the switch from “just A/C” to a fully-reversible heat pump is a lot more extensive than just adding the reversing valve, a second expansion valve, and a defroster for the exterior heat exchanger. A completely different system is installed with a completely different refrigerant with quite-different thermal and mechanical properties. There may also be the loss of “economies of scale” for this very-different system.

All things considered, I'm not sure I'd have selected the heat pump if it had been offered in my region. (But it wasn't so I can only speak hypothetically.) But I don't think VW is necessarily financially soaking those people who buy-in to the heat pump.

 

[serious.sam.4all]

Also, VW might have been greedy on the price of the option. A heatpump is basically an AC with valves to reverse the process (and a better compressor, etc...).

So... the heatpump replace the AC. If a car AC is around 1000 $, VW is basicaly charging us 1000 + 1500 = 2500 + tax. A basic house heatpump that work down to -25c costed (2 years ago when I bought mine) around 3500 + tax $ installation included (they can cost a lot more tho).

IMO, 2500 is way more than what it's worth / cost.

I think Heat Pump is an added hardware on top of AC compressor not just adding reversing valves

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2016/MC-10121131-9999.pdf

Look at this article for VW Golf, it explains everything in detail how VW uses it and what extra hardware is added. As this is for VW Golf, it may not exactly reflect on how they are doing it in ID4.

Heat pump vs saving energy and its efficiency is different topic altogether.

After fiasco in Europe, where it was not as efficient as they advertised and had to refund some money. I think @VW TECHNICIAN in one of the threads said they are going to update the design for extreme low temperature conditions. I am not sure if they already did it in 2023 ID4.

Next revision will have 800 watts heater for heat pump fluid to help with extreme cold weather conditions operation A/C as heat pump.

 

[Koldar]

I think @serious.sam.4all and @Atlant are both right that an heatpump is a different beast. I just feel that R&D has mostly been paid off by the home market. @Atlant is also right that the economy of scale is probably the main raison for the higher cost.

Thanks for reminding me of those details

 

[Nycturne]

I think @serious.sam.4all and @Atlant are both right that an heatpump is a different beast. I just feel that R&D has mostly been paid off by the home market. @Atlant is also right that the economy of scale is probably the main raison for the higher cost.

Depends, there's a lot of home market heat pumps that are not R744, meaning they are using the same compressors as in standard A/Cs. My home heat pump uses 1234yf. That's the ugly bit, CO2 needs a beefier compressor that can handle the 10x pressures involved, but CO2 can extract more thermal energy when the air is at freezing temperatures, which is why companies are moving back to it.

The heat pump isn't that much more complicated, but the fact that VW went with two different refrigerants means a lot of parts that could be shared, aren't.

 

[Atlant]

Depends, there's a lot of home market heat pumps that are not R744, meaning they are using the same compressors as in standard A/Cs. My home heat pump uses 1234yf. That's the ugly bit, CO2 needs a beefier compressor that can handle the 10x pressures involved, but CO2 can extract more thermal energy when the air is at freezing temperatures, which is why companies are moving back to it.

The heat pump isn't that much more complicated, but the fact that VW went with two different refrigerants means a lot of parts that could be shared, aren't.

But R744 is less good at summertime air conditioning and in the US market, that's probably more important than the slight bump in heating efficiency provided by an R744 heat pump.

 

[Nycturne]

But R744 is less good at summertime air conditioning and in the US market, that's probably more important than the slight bump in heating efficiency provided by an R744 heat pump.

I'm aware of this (I posted a long comment in this very thread to that effect). But wouldn't call gains in the 33-50% range when we are talking around the freezing region slight, to be honest. It's not like the US market is a monolith when it comes to climate. We're a pretty diverse nation when it comes to that.

My point was more that it's not that these CO2 heat pumps aren't coming from developments aimed at the home, per se (i.e. the comment about R&D having already been paid off). Many of them are still built around existing refrigerants (because of cost, ability to reuse existing components, etc), and CO2 is a bit of a re-learning experience. Even with the fact that people generally don't take long road trips in a single family detached home, so you can tailor the HVAC system to the local climate more than you can with cars, R744 is still making inroads in the home market as well. Partly because you need to convince folks that the limitations of 1234yf isn't necessarily the case these days in places like the NE.

 

[serious.sam.4all]

Finally I picked up my car with Heat Pump. It seems to be performing way beyond my expectations in first couple of days of use.

Current weather is in the sweet spot for max Heat pump efficiency (around 0-2'c and low wind). I had cabin temperature set at 19.5'c, Heated seats and Steering wheel at low setting. I was driving on B with ECO Mode. When I traveled to work, around 40km one way (70/30 Hwy/City, speed on hwy was between 110-125 kmph). It used 9% battery and efficiency was around 19kwh/100km and while coming back on a bit longer route (45km) with 2 stops used 19.9kwh/100km and 11% battery (Car was parked outside for 8 hours, so it was cold vs parked in the garage in the morning)

19kwh/100km gives 406km for 77.2 kwh
19.9kwh/100km gives 386km for 77.2 kwh

They advertise 410km range for 2023 awd model and these numbers seems amazing in cold weather. I think in summer we can easily achieve that.

 

[Koldar]

Finally I picked up my car with Heat Pump. It seems to be performing way beyond my expectations in first couple of days of use.

Current weather is in the sweet spot for max Heat pump efficiency (around 0-2'c and low wind). I had cabin temperature set at 19.5'c, Heated seats and Steering wheel at low setting. I was driving on B with ECO Mode. When I traveled to work, around 40km one way (70/30 Hwy/City, speed on hwy was between 110-125 kmph). It used 9% battery and efficiency was around 19kwh/100km and while coming back on a bit longer route (45km) with 2 stops used 19.9kwh/100km and 11% battery (Car was parked outside for 8 hours, so it was cold vs parked in the garage in the morning)

19kwh/100km gives 406km for 77.2 kwh
19.9kwh/100km gives 386km for 77.2 kwh

They advertise 410km range for 2023 awd model and these numbers seems amazing in cold weather. I think in summer we can easily achieve that.

Those are great numbers, thank you for sharing them. Congrats on your new ride!

 

[serious.sam.4all]

Those are great numbers, thank you for sharing them. Congrats on your new ride!

Thanks, I will keep posting new numbers. Specially in extreme weather

 

[Perry Rhodan]

Finally I picked up my car with Heat Pump. It seems to be performing way beyond my expectations in first couple of days of use.

Current weather is in the sweet spot for max Heat pump efficiency (around 0-2'c and low wind). I had cabin temperature set at 19.5'c, Heated seats and Steering wheel at low setting. I was driving on B with ECO Mode. When I traveled to work, around 40km one way (70/30 Hwy/City, speed on hwy was between 110-125 kmph). It used 9% battery and efficiency was around 19kwh/100km and while coming back on a bit longer route (45km) with 2 stops used 19.9kwh/100km and 11% battery (Car was parked outside for 8 hours, so it was cold vs parked in the garage in the morning)

19kwh/100km gives 406km for 77.2 kwh
19.9kwh/100km gives 386km for 77.2 kwh

They advertise 410km range for 2023 awd model and these numbers seems amazing in cold weather. I think in summer we can easily achieve that.

Summer numbers will be much better. I regularly get under 18kWh/100km on my 2021. A 400km trip last summer from Kelowna to Vancouver during the heat wave (40c at the EC Kelowna location) came in at 18.4 which is good considering this was driving the Coquihalla doing 120..