[p__x]

That’s at a constant 75mph, I think? Not sure of the speed, but it’s definitely a highway only test…

they claim it's at 70 MPH. i suspect that they fully charged, kept it in comfort, set the AC to some ridiculous setting and then drove 50 miles and extrapolated from the 100% to let's say 75% charge. But the ID4's consumption curve is nonlinear and much more generous at charges over 80%. .

 

[lacompas]

I think if VW chopped the price by $10K it would be more competitive

They did for the 24 models, I got my Pro for 54k CAD taxes in, which is 35k USD before taxes. The 25 models were 15k CAD more expensive a few months later.

 

[Pres]

But the ID4's consumption curve is nonlinear and much more generous at charges over 80%. .

Could you elaborate on that or link to any discussion? I am not familiar with this and haven't found anything documenting.

 

[p__x]

Could you elaborate on that or link to any discussion? I am not familiar with this and haven't found anything documenting.

Let me be more specific, it's not the consumption itself but the acceleration curve that depends on charge. The range of power you have available when you are charged above 80% (nearly 100% or full bar) is much higher than when your charge is below 20% (about 50%? of power available). This manifests in a significantly different acceleration curve. In other words, the car is much faster when the battery is full and then gradually cuts back from the power.

So in practical terms, the same driving style will yield much lower projected ranges if range is measured and extrapolated from 100% to 80% vs. if it's measured let's say from 25% to 5%.

 

[MadScientist]

Did you have any issues with the Ioniq's travel assist not seeing your eyes? I read recently that the latest version struggles with glasses or sunglasses blocking the IR camera's view of the driver's eyes.

 

[Dougie01]

Let me be more specific, it's not the consumption itself but the acceleration curve that depends on charge. The range of power you have available when you are charged above 80% (nearly 100% or full bar) is much higher than when your charge is below 20% (about 50%? of power available). This manifests in a significantly different acceleration curve. In other words, the car is much faster when the battery is full and then gradually cuts back from the power.

So in practical terms, the same driving style will yield much lower projected ranges if range is measured and extrapolated from 100% to 80% vs. if it's measured let's say from 25% to 5%.

I'm not so sure about that last statement.

The chemical energy from the battery is converted to mechanical energy in the motor. The power has to do with the rate of change of the energy. If you drive the same speed profile with a higher charged battery or a lower charged battery, the energy used is the same. The only effect of the lower charge is in the limit as to how much power you can obtain. If the speed profile asks you to go faster than the car can go, due to the lower charge, then you won't be able to maintain the profile.

So it seems to me that if you can maintain the required speed, the energy required should be the same in either case.

???

 

[voxel]

I'm not so sure about that last statement.

The chemical energy from the battery is converted to mechanical energy in the motor. The power has to do with the rate of change of the energy. If you drive the same speed profile with a higher charged battery or a lower charged battery, the energy used is the same. The only effect of the lower charge is in the limit as to how much power you can obtain. If the speed profile asks you to go faster than the car can go, due to the lower charge, then you won't be able to maintain the profile.

So it seems to me that if you can maintain the required speed, the energy required should be the same in either case.

???

Kinda.

With NMC cells, voltage is higher at the higher SoC (LFP voltage graph is fairly flat). The amp draw is higher at lower SoC for the SAME kW power thus technically you are emptying the battery quicker at lower SoC.

LFP has a very flat curve - which is good and bad. Bad because you can't just measure the cell voltage and guess a SoC and thus that's why carmakers suggest you charge to 100% occasionally.

 

[p__x]

I'm not so sure about that last statement.

The chemical energy from the battery is converted to mechanical energy in the motor. The power has to do with the rate of change of the energy. If you drive the same speed profile with a higher charged battery or a lower charged battery, the energy used is the same. The only effect of the lower charge is in the limit as to how much power you can obtain. If the speed profile asks you to go faster than the car can go, due to the lower charge, then you won't be able to maintain the profile.

So it seems to me that if you can maintain the required speed, the energy required should be the same in either case.

???

From a practical perspective it's more like I have to use the brakes more at the same driving style at a higher charge. So maybe it's not the acceleration itself but the regen that is reduced. Which takes us back to practically the same: the driving dynamics seem to become less efficient at higher charge.

 

[Atlant]

From a practical perspective it's more like I have to use the brakes more at the same driving style at a higher charge. So maybe it's not the acceleration itself but the regen that is reduced. Which takes us back to practically the same: the driving dynamics seem to become less efficient at higher charge.

I think you're making the point that above some threshold value State-of-Charge (~95% or so), the amount of available regeneration is reduced (the dim green bar gets shorter) so the car needs to depend more on the friction brakes if it's commanded to slow down. (At 100% charge, essentially no room is left in the battery to accommodate regenerated power so there's no regenerative braking at all.)

This is absolutely true so, yes, there is some reduction in efficiency at high States-of-Charge if traffic conditions are such that you actually need to decelerate.

 

[p__x]

I think you're making the point that above some threshold value State-of-Charge (~95% or so), the amount of available regeneration is reduced (the dim green bar gets shorter) so the car needs to depend more on the friction brakes if it's commanded to slow down. (At 100% charge, essentially no room is left in the battery to accommodate regenerated power so there's no regenerative braking at all.)

This is absolutely true so, yes, there is some reduction in efficiency at high States-of-Charge if traffic conditions are such that you actually need to decelerate.

we only charged the car above 90% once or twice, but my wife recently did it on accident after we got the software update (well known bug). It was doing the reduced regen at 93% and it definitely didn't ease up in the mid-high 80s. So B-mode felt like D. But now that I think about it more, it does accelerate faster too.

 

[Atlant]

we only charged the car above 90% once or twice, but my wife recently did it on accident after we got the software update (well known bug). It was doing the reduced regen at 93% and it definitely didn't ease up in the mid-high 80s.

I don't know exactly what SoC allows the green bar to reach full length; you're probably right that it's 90% or less.

So B-mode felt like D. But now that I think about it more, it does accelerate faster too.

That's also true and I've always thought it was a sour note that the full width of the blue bar was only available for a few moments when the SoC was VERY high. This always made the car's power ratings strike me as very deceptive marketing.

 

[p__x]

This always made the car's power ratings strike me as very deceptive marketing.

yup! though at once 0-60 reaches <7.5 sec, I care more about the sound system (which is probably the weakest point of the ioniq 5 too). BTW, did y'all notice that people stopped talking about 0-60 times? we all had our fun with it, but on one hand it's getting reckless, and the other, the dynamics determine the fun, not the acceleration.

 

[Moe]

yup! though at once 0-60 reaches <7.5 sec, I care more about the sound system (which is probably the weakest point of the ioniq 5 too). BTW, did y'all notice that people stopped talking about 0-60 times? we all had our fun with it, but on one hand it's getting reckless, and the other, the dynamics determine the fun, not the acceleration.

A 1965 Pontiac GTO with miserable on the highway 4.11:1 gears did 0-60 mph just below 6 seconds Wikipedia). The AWD ID.4 does it in about 5.7 seconds.

 

[p__x]

The AWD ID.4 does it in about 5.7 seconds.

*when charged above 90%. You're making a good point here: EVs do it quietly without the "look ma' how hard I can accelerate" roar from ICE.

 

[Dougie01]

Kinda.

With NMC cells, voltage is higher at the higher SoC (LFP voltage graph is fairly flat). The amp draw is higher at lower SoC for the SAME kW power thus technically you are emptying the battery quicker at lower SoC.

View attachment 39443

LFP has a very flat curve - which is good and bad. Bad because you can't just measure the cell voltage and guess a SoC and thus that's why carmakers suggest you charge to 100% occasionally.

I think what is actually going on is that the current is being limited to some maximum in all cases, and the voltage is lower. That makes the power lower when the charge is lower. Obviously there are questions of battery and motor temperature management that also confuse the issue.

But here's a video from Bjorn Nyland where he collects some acceleration data. Notice that the current is limited to 1200 amps (upper right hand number) in all cases, even down to 20% SOC. So if the battery voltage is lower at 20% than at 90%, the available power will be limited by that fixed current limit.

 

[p__x]

I think what is actually going on is that the current is being limited to some maximum in all cases, and the voltage is lower. That makes the power lower when the charge is lower. Obviously there are questions of battery and motor temperature management that also confuse the issue.

But here's a video from Bjorn Nyland where he collects some acceleration data. Notice that the current is limited to 1200 amps (upper right hand number) in all cases, even down to 20% SOC. So if the battery voltage is lower at 20% than at 90%, the available power will be limited by that fixed current limit.

but different cars handle this very differently.

 

[mdogzz]

Did you have any issues with the Ioniq's travel assist not seeing your eyes? I read recently that the latest version struggles with glasses or sunglasses blocking the IR camera's view of the driver's eyes.

I didn’t notice this. I used the travel assist and wore sunglasses all the time too for what it’s worth. But I’m curious — why does it need to notice your eyes?

For what it’s worth, if I didn’t have my hands firmly on the wheel, I would get warnings to put my hands on the wheel, like the ID.4 does too. But the Hyundai system was more aggressive about this and you had to have your hands very firmly on the wheel to avoid getting this warning.

 

[ericy]

I didn’t notice this. I used the travel assist and wore sunglasses all the time too for what it’s worth. But I’m curious — why does it need to notice your eyes?

Mainly to try and detect if you are drowsy or inattentive.

 

[mdogzz]

Mainly to try and detect if you are drowsy or inattentive.

Aha interesting! One time my wife was driving and it put up a message suggesting she stop for a break. We had not been driving for very long so it was definitely an error. I don’t know if she was wearing sunglasses but probably was. So yes I suppose this is an issue! But just the one time in two weeks.

 

[mdogzz]

Mainly to try and detect if you are drowsy or inattentive.

Aha! My wife was driving once and it put up a message saying she should stop and take a break. We hadn’t been driving very long so it definitely was an error. I don’t know if she was wearing sunglasses, but probably! But this only happened the one time in two weeks.