[fireboy92k]

Yeah, I'm not sure what advantage going to 50V would really bring? I'd have to watch his video. I doubt that 50V cable would be thinner than 12V cable, if anything they are the same diameter. V=IR, so if the voltage goes up, the current or resistance have to be adjusted. Still, most electronics operate at 5V, so it just makes the power adjustment problem even bigger to me? Sure you can do it with power transistors and whatnot, but that just means conversion loses (i.e. heat). It would take a lot I think to move. I'm not sure about the benefit.

It's not the voltage alone that will kill you, it's the combination of voltage and current. Just ask anyone that's been hit with a taser or run into an electric fence, both of which are powered by batteries. A lot of voltage, not a lot of current.

Anyhow, I'm not sure for most people how well a Li-Ion battery would work as a main battery? They are really susceptible to heat as we've already discussed and noted for the main battery as well. I guess they could install a supplemental low-power battery with a different tap in the main battery.

 

[hilld]

While it might normally take a lot of current to kill somebody, a high voltage shock, even if low current can cause heart issues in some people. Should still be safe rather than sorry.

 

[fireboy92k]

While it might normally take a lot of current to kill somebody, a high voltage shock, even if low current can cause heart issues in some people. Should still be safe rather than sorry.

Oh yeah, I agree. Which is why I question why Sandy would think 50V is a good idea. LOL

 

[voxel]

Yeah, I'm not sure what advantage going to 50V would really bring? I'd have to watch his video. I doubt that 50V cable would be thinner than 12V cable, if anything they are the same diameter. V=IR, so if the voltage goes up, the current or resistance have to be adjusted. Still, most electronics operate at 5V, so it just makes the power adjustment problem even bigger to me? Sure you can do it with power transistors and whatnot, but that just means conversion loses (i.e. heat). It would take a lot I think to move. I'm not sure about the benefit.

It's not the voltage alone that will kill you, it's the combination of voltage and current. Just ask anyone that's been hit with a taser or run into an electric fence, both of which are powered by batteries. A lot of voltage, not a lot of current.

Anyhow, I'm not sure for most people how well a Li-Ion battery would work as a main battery? They are really susceptible to heat as we've already discussed and noted for the main battery as well. I guess they could install a supplemental low-power battery with a different tap in the main battery.

1) As computer systems like the in-car display get more powerful and power hungry, if you need more watts you have to push more amps/current through wires. If everything used 200W of power (just a random number )... at 12V that's 16A (Watts = V * A). At 50V that's 4A which can use thinner long wires for weight savings and less heat loss. Eventually our car computers will be fairly power hungry...as they are vision processing and AI systems.

2) Electronics using 5V is just legacy. I've worked with 50V electronics and they can be just as small as 5V electronics and generate less heat/loss because they use lower current (for the same power/watts). Of course there are other problems with higher voltage system.

3) At the power/watt draw that the non-drivetrain electronics use, a li-ion would be fine. In fact.. there's no reason to use lead-acid to me. Li-ion is more energy dense and can produce more power and is lighter and heat is only generated during high C charge and discharge (which you are not doing with a main battery). Lead-acid is just known and cheap. Most modern advanced electronics have moved to lithium batteries already.

 

[Andy at Ross-Tech.com]

I now have a Tiguan loaner that is 100% better than the ID.4 in this specific metric.

 

[fireboy92k]

1) As computer systems like the in-car display get more powerful and power hungry, if you need more watts you have to push more amps/current through wires. If everything used 200W of power (just a random number )... at 12V that's 16A (Watts = V * A). At 50V that's 4A which can use thinner long wires for weight savings and less heat loss. Eventually our car computers will be fairly power hungry...as they are vision processing and AI systems.

2) Electronics using 5V is just legacy. I've worked with 50V electronics and they can be just as small as 5V electronics and generate less heat/loss because they use lower current (for the same power/watts). Of course there are other problems with higher voltage system.

3) At the power/watt draw that the non-drivetrain electronics use, a li-ion would be fine. In fact.. there's no reason to use lead-acid to me. Li-ion is more energy dense and can produce more power and is lighter and heat is only generated during high C charge and discharge (which you are not doing with a main battery). Lead-acid is just known and cheap. Most modern advanced electronics have moved to lithium batteries already.

Yeah, but for #2 to work in a computer system (and related to #1 for sure!) - you are talking about redesigning everything from the transistor/computer chip out. Those all run at 5V or less at the chip level. So you will have to convert to lower power/current to get there on board at each device, or get Intel/Nvidia/etc. to build new chips on completely different architectures OR build/adopt a bespoke environment that you have to teach everyone to use and get no economy of scale for those.

It's certainly less wire to only run one pair at a higher DC voltage, but what's the trade-off to 2 power taps (or more) at the existing voltage? And is that the only consideration?

So again, if you still have to convert, is the higher wattage worth being the only reason for 50V? Maybe you could do one big step down for a bunch of items you daisy-chain off a single power inverter/converter...

If we really wanted to get efficient, we'd probably be talking about 400hz a/c power like airplanes use.

 

[Joe_U698745]

Captain's Log: Day 3 of VW ID.4-less-ness.

The dealer has been responding to my emails with daily updates but unfortunately has not had a chance to look at it yet and the soonest loaner available is Tuesday (but I asked them to let me know if any become available due to cancellations). Car-Net still shows 12V too low, but I don't trust it, as described above.

Does the dealer service department have anyone on staff that is trained to work on ID.4s? In reading other threads in this forum it appears that an engineer/technician travels from dealer to dealer to look at and diagnose these cars along with video conferences back to Germany. One forum member mentioned that the roving engineer was booked out 3 weeks before getting to his car for diagnosis. Does your dealer address any of this?

 

[Andy at Ross-Tech.com]

I believe my dealership has two ID.4 trained techs. Of course that doesn’t mean they aren’t already assigned to different jobs. I’m ok with using the loaner til they fix the ID.4.

 

[clayof2day]

To be clear, my dealer has EV techs and is a battery service center, but as it was their first repair on a High Voltage system, a Quality Technical Manager (QTM, regional) was required to be on site. Remember, we are not early adopters for EVs, but we are firsts for VW

 

[VW TECHNICIAN]

Does the dealer service department have anyone on staff that is trained to work on ID.4s? In reading other threads in this forum it appears that an engineer/technician travels from dealer to dealer to look at and diagnose these cars along with video conferences back to Germany. One forum member mentioned that the roving engineer was booked out 3 weeks before getting to his car for diagnosis. Does your dealer address any of this?

There is good technicians out there but being new architecture and software being locked at many levels it will require engineer on site or engineering online access for many types of repairs....most of them are taking classes and learning how to work on EV. And any work related on HV Battery internals will require QTE level technician.

 

[ericy]

I now have a Tiguan loaner that is 100% better than the ID.4 in this specific metric.

It is funny that you point to the window switches - I have a nearly identical set just like this on order for my wife's Golf. Because one of the switches has failed, and she can't lower the driver window.

 

[Andy at Ross-Tech.com]

Captain's Log: Day 5 of VW ID.4-less-ness.

I drove past the dealer and the ID.4 is still in the same spot with its mirrors folded (so presumably it had enough juice to lock the doors). I’m kinda spoiled but I forgot how it feels to drive an ICE car with an automatic transmission. The Tiguan SE loaner is probably fine for what it is but there’s vibration at idle, seemingly random times when it shifts the 8 speed automatic, and a general disconnect between right foot requesting acceleration and the car delivering it. The engine note is not pleasant under any situations especially when called upon to deliver full power, which results in MUCH slower acceleration than the ID.4. Anyway absence makes the heart grow fonder and I will keep y’all posted about any developments.

 

[2928]

Captain's Log: Day 5 of VW ID.4-less-ness.

I drove past the dealer and the ID.4 is still in the same spot with its mirrors folded (so presumably it had enough juice to lock the doors). I’m kinda spoiled but I forgot how it feels to drive an ICE car with an automatic transmission. The Tiguan SE loaner is probably fine for what it is but there’s vibration at idle, seemingly random times when it shifts the 8 speed automatic, and a general disconnect between right foot requesting acceleration and the car delivering it. The engine note is not pleasant under any situations especially when called upon to deliver full power, which results in MUCH slower acceleration than the ID.4. Anyway absence makes the heart grow fonder and I will keep y’all posted about any developments.

I had a Tiguan as a service loaner last time i took my Golf in for an oil change. What a horrid little utilitarian box, all black scratchy plastic everywhere inside and you’re right, the automatic seemed to get confused at part throttle, but that’s hardly unique to Tiguans I suppose. I haven’t driven an automatic gas car as a primary vehicle in 20 years or more, but I guess I’d assumed they’d made progress… guess I was wrong Someone asked me yesterday if I missed driving the manual transmission in the ID.4, and it got me thinking. Honestly I don’t… it has the same immediate response and total control as a manual, just less to do I can’t believe I’m saying this, but for the first time since I got my license I am considering the fact I don’t need a manual trans…

 

[Warrior]

I'm sorry, but I have to write and defend the Tiguan. I had 3, all diesel, with the last 2 being 7 speed DSG automatics. Absolutely brilliant. The DSG was so smooth and responsive. I loved everything about the car and the way it handled. The only reason I went to the ID4, was that my Tiguan was 4 years old, I was going to change and was adamant my next car would be a hybrid or full EV. So I stayed with VW and hence the ID4.

 

[Andy at Ross-Tech.com]

@Warrior no offense intended toward the Tiguan line in general, but you may have different experiences in the UK. Currently the only size we get in the USA is the larger “Allspace” type that you in the UK can pick, but are not forced into, and the only engine is a gasoline 184hp 2.0T gasser paired with an 8 speed torque converter automatic (not a DSG). The Tiguan definitely feels underpowered and is probably the slowest vehicle that VW sells here. That said it’s still an MQB, like my previously owned 2018 A3 e-tron PHEV and my 2015 GTI 6MT before that, so the basic platform and rigidity are quite good.

 

[Warrior]

Thank you for your explanation. I can certainly see why the Tiguan (USA) was out of favour with you. There are so many differences in your models over there, with the ID4 being another fine example. I have learned so much recently on this forum about your models and can understand why there are so many frustrated owners. One prime example is that you don't have autohold. I couldn't manage without it. I'm so used to it, as it was on all of my Tiguans, including my first in 2008.

 

[notspeedy]

the EU spec models are better in almost ever way compared to what we get. Every VW owner I know wish we had the EU versions. At one point, I looked into how to import a car from EU! I'm sure VW has their reasons. Perhaps to keep cost down for US market? Although I would think economy of scale by reducing variants would be enough.

 

[2928]

the EU spec models are better in almost ever way compared to what we get. Every VW owner I know wish we had the EU versions. At one point, I looked into how to import a car from EU! I'm sure VW has their reasons. Perhaps to keep cost down for US market? Although I would think economy of scale by reducing variants would be enough.

Can’t blame VW though - they tried to bring the “nice stuff” like the original Touareg and Tiguan over here and they didn’t sell… when the built the big, fat Atlas and US Tiguan, they’re sales took off…

 

[fireboy92k]

Can’t blame VW though - they tried to bring the “nice stuff” like the original Touareg and Tiguan over here and they didn’t sell… when the built the big, fat Atlas and US Tiguan, they’re sales took off…

That's because they were SOOOO expensive. I don't recall why, but they were very expensive.

 

[VW TECHNICIAN]

Thank you for your explanation. I can certainly see why the Tiguan (USA) was out of favour with you. There are so many differences in your models over there, with the ID4 being another fine example. I have learned so much recently on this forum about your models and can understand why there are so many frustrated owners. One prime example is that you don't have autohold. I couldn't manage without it. I'm so used to it, as it was on all of my Tiguans, including my first in 2008.

Here in US anything less than V6 or less than 300 HP is considered very dangerous to operate with ICE engine....fuel is cheap and most Americans love power.... Some American muscle family cars are 800 HP at the wheels....RedEye for example.
And insurance is completely different than in EU owning 800+ HP....dirty cheap vs EU.
It is more about how many smiles you get per mile than MPG.