Now it seems the smart thing to do for the 1st gen ID.4 was to lease. Those vehicles will never get 4.0 and the 21s and 22s will probably never get Plug and Charge, or access to Superchargers.

 

Sounds like a class-action suit.

 

Good thing I can file with my state for Lemon Law at any time between now and next January. I’m just waiting for a compelling EV to show up before I file. No reason to keep it if I can’t even get access to the superchargers. I’m locked in to the $47,000 refund based on my state’s Lemon Law due it it having spent over 30 days at a dealer’s shop last fall.

 

There is now a NACS-to-CCS adapter available (made by Lectron). It's orderable and shippable.

Problem is that it will not work with the ID.4 yet - I asked Lectron. Additionally, if I specify ID.4 as a vehicle type in the Tesla app, it doesn't show any Supercharger locations available as DC charging options. If I specify R1T as a vehicle type, then every Supercharger location within a few-state radius that I know of show up as an available DC charging option.

My question is if the ID.4 before 2023 model year will even be able to use Tesla Superchargers that have no Magic Dock at any point at all. It seems that for Tesla Superchargers to work with 3rd-party EVs, the least that needs to happen is plug-and-charge, as there is no manual "authorize payment" option for Supercharger stalls without a Magic Dock. VW seems to be incapable of enabling plug-and-charge on ID.4s prior to 2023 model year even with Electrify America. I'm worried I will never get access to Tesla Superchargers in my 2022 AWD Pro S Plus.

In other words, this is not just a simple physical adapter requirement (which can now be purchased from Lectron with no need to wait for the official Tesla-made adapter). The biggest obstacle to charging a non-Tesla EV at Tesla Superchargers is not the physical adapter but the capability of the EV to negotiate plug-and-charge with the Tesla Supercharger.

Thanks.

My advice is to put it on ice.

There's no sense in looking at NACS to CCS adapters until Tesla turns that ability on for VW.

There's also no sense in ruminating whether (a) we'll get P&C or (b) whether P&C will be a requirement to use a Supercharger, because we simply don't have enough info to go on, or who is pulling the strings.

What we do know is Magic Dock Surchargeers are compatible with ID.4s, which can be initialized through the Tesla app, so there is every expectation that a regular Supercharger can be made compatible when the time comes – that if anything it'll likely be a contractual constraint vs. a technical constraint, if there's a constraint at all.

And we also know with some confidence that P&C was supposedly ready for our 21/22 cars – "officially announced" by Diess for what that's worth – so at minimum I'd expect a retraction from VW before we completely give up hope.

I'm not infinitely patient but I am hopeful that since VW is finally rolling out OTAs that they specifically mention will help to let the car receive further OTAs that this is still in the cards for us. Otherwise, why would they stick their necks out to call attention to it (OTAs, not P&C).

 

My advice is to put it on ice.

There's no sense in looking at NACS to CCS adapters until Tesla turns that ability on for VW.

Furthermore, it is impossible to predict what gyrations might happen on the Supercharger side of things in the next couple of years. With Elmo in charge, he might decide to sell the entire Tesla charging network to EA or ChargePoint to raise cash for his bloated personal paycheck.

 

My 22 has PnC - in my garage. I plug it in and it charges, and I like the price. Oh yeah, the connector matches my ID4 perfectly, no adaptor required. Still haven't used one second of "free" EA, and could care less about Tesla supercharging which will certainly not be free or even cheap for that matter.

 

There is now a NACS-to-CCS adapter available (made by Lectron). It's orderable and shippable.

Problem is that it will not work with the ID.4 yet - I asked Lectron. Additionally, if I specify ID.4 as a vehicle type in the Tesla app, it doesn't show any Supercharger locations available as DC charging options. If I specify R1T as a vehicle type, then every Supercharger location within a few-state radius that I know of show up as an available DC charging option.

My question is if the ID.4 before 2023 model year will even be able to use Tesla Superchargers that have no Magic Dock at any point at all. It seems that for Tesla Superchargers to work with 3rd-party EVs, the least that needs to happen is plug-and-charge, as there is no manual "authorize payment" option for Supercharger stalls without a Magic Dock. VW seems to be incapable of enabling plug-and-charge on ID.4s prior to 2023 model year even with Electrify America. I'm worried I will never get access to Tesla Superchargers in my 2022 AWD Pro S Plus.

In other words, this is not just a simple physical adapter requirement (which can now be purchased from Lectron with no need to wait for the official Tesla-made adapter). The biggest obstacle to charging a non-Tesla EV at Tesla Superchargers is not the physical adapter but the capability of the EV to negotiate plug-and-charge with the Tesla Supercharger.

Thanks.

Due note, Lectron is not sending out many or they have a HUGE backlog. I ordered mine the First week of Feb and I still don't have it. And Lectron can't/won't give me a estimate when it will be delivered, which tells me they are having some issues right now.
As for the Plug and Charge. Time will tell, but I thought I saw some videos from Ford Owners that you can start the charge via the Tesla App. you might get a different price. But yea, if Plug and Charge is needed, I don't trust VW figuring this out. I am still waiting for my OTA for 3.2.x.

 

Due note, Lectron is not sending out many or they have a HUGE backlog. I ordered mine the First week of Feb and I still don't have it. And Lectron can't/won't give me a estimate when it will be delivered, which tells me they are having some issues right now.
As for the Plug and Charge. Time will tell, but I thought I saw some videos from Ford Owners that you can start the charge via the Tesla App. you might get a different price. But yea, if Plug and Charge is needed, I don't trust VW figuring this out. I am still waiting for my OTA for 3.2.x.

Something is going on with the Lectron one. They finally told me this via an email. "Due to various factors such as production schedules, shipping logistics, and unforeseen circumstances, we are unable to provide an exact ETA for individual orders at this time "

 

I think I Tesla may be following the Charin recommendation to support OEM adapters. They didn’t turn on access for Ford or Rivian until they began shipping OEM adapters. The same may be true for Volkswagen.

…Based on documented evidence from multiple catastrophic charging event failures involving charge coupler adapters, CharIN recommends the following interim steps by OEM EV manufacturers, federal and state regulatory agencies, and charge point operators (CPO) regarding the use of adapters:

• EV OEMs notify their dealers and vehicle owners that the use of any adapter other than the respective EV OEM’s approved adapter (e.g. any aftermarket, or will-fit, adapters) may result in severe damage to their vehicle and cause damages to the EV charging infrastructure and surrounding facilities;
• National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA)/Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS) and the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) engage to restrict market access to non-OEM approved adapters;
• Charge Point Operators (CPOs) provide only EV OEM approved adapters and provide messaging via their public communication channels in addition to signage on the EVSE dispenser regarding the use of adapters.

CharIN Statement Regarding SAE J3400™/SAE J1772™ Adapters – CharIN

Empowering the next level of e-mobility by developing and establishing the Combined Charging System (CCS) as the global standard for charging battery powered electric vehicles.

www.charin.global

I believe once VW does this it may be possible for owners to use Superchargers without PnC by using the app.

 

All this worrying about adapter is really a moot issue. New Tesla SuC installs will likely have Magic Dock as Tesla is likely getting NEMI funding and CCS plugs are a requirement. If you've been following the Magic Dock locations, you will realize that the availability is growing.

https://www.tesla.com/findus?v=2&bounds=55.26074944286395%2C-68.38670089875049%2C25.652081047982296%2C-124.63670089875048&zoom=5&filters=party

Plus, Travel Centers like Loves and Pilot/Flying J are starting to install DCFC and a few are starting to show up and many more coming this summer. With the Tesla rollout schedule for CCS vehicles, VW will likely be allowed in 2025. Does it even matter then? The smarter thing to do with no wait is to sign up with Bluedot so you pay 25/30c per kWh instead of 60c/kWh at Pilot/Flying J rather than wishing for adapters.

Also, older Tesla SuC sites will likely be close to an existing CCS DCFC anyway.

 

If you've been following the Magic Dock locations, you will realize that the availability is growing."

Really?! One magicdoc in Illinois. 2 in Michigan. None in Ohio. Magicdocs appear to have hit a brick wall. Really a shame considering how painfully slow the NACS adapter rollout has been for traditional manufacturers. That's not to mention that over half the Superchargers in some states--including Michigan--are V2 units that aren't even available to Ford and Rivian, and never will be unless Tesla upgrades them to V3s, V4s, or magicdocs. And that doesn't appear to be happening at all, or at least with any speed whatsoever.

 

The newest batch of Superchargers are equipped with both an NACS cable and a CCS cable - It remains to be seen how many of those will be installed, but Elon is collecting a nice check from the government for everyone he does install

 

Older Tesla sites may not meet the siting regulations for NEVI. Those are within 25 miles of each state line on designated routes , approximately every 25 miles there after, and no more than a half mile off if the designated route.

 

I am over 400 miles from the nearest SC with MagicDock, so it is not exactly "nearby," @p7wang . And the doubt about whether or when Tesla might ever build one anywhere in SoCal is the point. There is absolutely no certainty.

 

Only if you are dead set on using the Tesla SuC and refuse to use any CCS stations. If that's the case, you need to buy a Tesla.

 

Now it seems the smart thing to do for the 1st gen ID.4 was to lease. Those vehicles will never get 4.0 and the 21s and 22s will probably never get Plug and Charge, or access to Superchargers.

But but, Volkswagen pinky promised we'd get plug and charge and a OTA in November of... 2022?

Sounds like a class-action suit.

I mean, I'm all for holding companies accountable when they breach a contract, but it was never in writing we would get OTA, or Plug and Charge. Volkswagen executives just said they were hopeful we (21 owners) would get those things. Then they backtracked and said the newer cars would have the hardware to do these things.

In the class action lawsuits I have been involved in, it was the lawyers that made money. I got the equivalent of a free car wash.

That's by design. Class action law suits have evolved over the years to benefit the attorneys only, literally by law.

One of the worst class actions I saw that I was apart of was a wage law violation for DCH group, later bought out by Lithia motors. The plaintiffs alleged that DCH systematically broke California labor law by not paying employees for a paid lunch when they did not take their lunch by their 5th hour. When I worked for a DCH dealer the service manager even told people they wouldn't pay you if you went over. And the someone sued them and it turned into a class action. The two plaintiffs who brought the case got a whopping $5000 finders fee, basically, the attorneys got MILLIONS of dollars, and the rest of the class got a few hundred dollars. Had DCH been forced to pay the penalties prescribed by law, each class member would have gotten a minimum of 30 days of wages, plus the unpaid wages. So that $5000 the two plaintiffs got didn't even cover waiting time penalties California charges employers who willfully and knowingly broke wage laws. But because Class Action law favors the attorneys only, employees got screwed.

 

Regardless of who ultimately benefits from class actions, the threat of pain inflicted against the defendant should be enough to encourage good corporate behavior.

So even if they don't put a satisfactory resolution in the individual hands of the plaintiffs, these lawsuits definitely send a message.

But I agree with @His_Stigness that VW is very careful (legally) what they say, what they promise – Diess' AMA is the closest we got to a P&C promise and I expect it'll be eventually delivered. OTA? Nowhere to be found in writing, and if they deliver just one, they've fulfilled any verbal commitment.

 

Regardless of who ultimately benefits from class actions, the threat of pain inflicted against the defendant should be enough to encourage good corporate behavior.

So even if they don't put a satisfactory resolution in the individual hands of the plaintiffs, these lawsuits definitely send a message.

But I agree with @His_Stigness that VW is very careful (legally) what they say, what they promise – Diess' AMA is the closest we got to a P&C promise and I expect it'll be eventually delivered. OTA? Nowhere to be found in writing, and if they deliver just one, they've fulfilled any verbal commitment.

I think we showed (recently) that a commitment to deliver routine, reasonably-frequent OTA updates was discussed in VW advertising and generally speaking, advertising is expected to be truthful.

 

Be careful that you don't get played by the "next shiny new object" syndrome.

OTA updates, who really cares? Plug-and-charge, who cares? It's not worth losing $10k or $20k by trading in a perfectly good 2021 on a 2025 just because the newer one has a few improvements. If you get into that mode it will be like American car habits in the 1950s where you got a new one every three years.

 

it will be like American car habits in the 1950s where you got a new one every three years.

Yeah, but back then 36 months was a long auto loan and you fully owned the vehicle after that.

 

Maybe I’m misreading what I see but it appears to me 2021-2022 owners are getting 3.2.12 OTA. I can’t tell whether they and subsequently early 2023 owners will get 3.5 OTA.

 

Well my 3 years free EA expired 5 minutes ago. So I’m up for the best offer.

 

Well far be it from me to complain. But even though my 3 years was over on the 18th EA still isn’t charging me for electricity. I open the app, use phone tap rather than swipe and it charges me zero. I expected me to revert to standard price but maybe they only change on the first of the month?

 

I don't know where you live, but in SoCal the charger networks are in terrible shape. Tesla pledges to fix everything but they have no SuCs with MagicDock within 400 miles, and they make no announcements about where or when a MD will be installed. The lack of specifics and details give me no hope.

ALL of the chargers here are overloaded, except the Tesla ones. Thus, even though I would never buy one of their cars, I would use their SuCs if I could.

 

You are talking today, I am talking late 2025, possibly 2026, when VW might get on board with adapters. But that time, you're likely to see plenty of Magic Dock in your local area. Tesla is opening a super site with a restaurant in LA... I'd think that would be v4 SuC with Magic Dock,

See the gray dots? Those are upcoming sites... I would think Tesla would put Magic Docks knowing that since most EVs are Tesla, allowing CCS cars to charge will only help with site utilization.

https://www.tesla.com/findus

 

Lectron not recommended, A2Z okay

This is the channel with all the Supercharger installation videos

 

Tom Malogney of "State of Charge" and Patrick of "Mach E Vlog" both tested the Lectron adapter and had no issues. I own the Lectron adapter tested it, with no issues. What I've found is on the bottom of the Tesla 3400 charging plug, the notch to lock the plug into a Tesla charge port or the Lectron adapter gets worn from heavy us and causes this issue. I tested 12 Tesla SC handles in my Lectron adapter, and 4 of the 12 locked properly while the other 8 didn't. The 8 handles that didn't lock looked beat up and well used to say it politely. This seems to be more of a Tesla issue and not Lectron issue. But Lectron said they would provide a return label and send me a new adapter free. They are taking responsibility and fixed the issue according to them as they say t was a bad batch, but I don't think it's the adapter lock or else it wouldn't lock on any of the Tesla charging handles.

 

It seems to depend very strongly on geographic region. Colorado has so many you trip over them. I have had to wait a grand total of two times, for a few minutes each time. On the other hand, Wyoming has so few there are plenty of places you can't even go in a Tesla. One hopes that the situation will get better over time.

The claim that Tesla's charging system is profitable suggests that there will be other entrants into the marketplace, just based on good old capitalism. I'm not seeing it locally, though, where big new gas stations are springing up everywhere and almost none of them have chargers.

 

The US now has 1 DC fast charging station for every 15 gas stations

DC fast charging station installation is gaining momentum in the US – Q1 2024 saw a 7.6% increase to nearly 8,200 total.

electrek.co

NEMI is the key for the future, adapter is backward looking.

 

I think you mean NEVI, but the two aren't mutually exclusive. Both would/will benefit all EV drivers (some sooner than others).

 

I think advertising something as OTA capable means the vehicle will get atleast one OTA update.

The current software

Oh there's no doubt VW set consumer expectations of OTAs every quarter. It's just that they carefully trode around committing to anything legally binding.

And perhaps that's why, despite the troubles, they're continuing to push forward with 3.2.x and maybe something more – just to say "we delivered!"

Yeah, it's always been my philosophy to under-promise and over-deliver if you want to make people happy. VW has done the opposite with OTA.. but Tesla has been bungling things far worse with their over-promising on self-driving and the price cuts to the self-driving tech has to really piss off early adopters.

I would be driving a Tesla had my 2022 VW arrived 1 month later from Germany. The price cuts to the Model Y and Model 3 along with the re-instituted tax credit in eary 2023 would have made me cancel my VW. But I must say, after over a year with the ID.4 it's really a dream to drive. The current software has been stable and 99% of my gripes are with Electrify America network and some fixes to the car that should be super simple, but I'm learning to just deal with.

My very simple dream list of fixes, if VW is listening:

A) Add auto-lock feature to car that locks door when Key Fob is 10 feet or so away. (Door handle lock work 50% of the time.. and I'm tired of fishing my keys out of my pocket to lock doors when i leave the car. Also design a better key fob... even with a case.. I hit the car alarm accidentally in my pocket far too often).

B) Allow more customizing of Multi-User menus system that doesn't require 3 clicks to change users every time you enter the car. Allow ability to tie user information to the key fob so it automatically detects user based on fob proximity. Or simplify menu clicks so it's a one click switch of users in interface.

C) Connect seat settings to key fob so when driver opens door seat adjusts to user automatically. (Wife is 5'2.. I'm 6'0... I've gotten used to manually pushing seat adjustment on the seat itself... but it's something so simple and convenient to tie these features to the key fob... most other vehicles have had this ability since mid-2000s).

That's it... a very simple list to make me much happier

 

The current software


Yeah, it's always been my philosophy to under-promise and over-deliver if you want to make people happy. VW has done the opposite with OTA.. but Tesla has been bungling things far worse with their over-promising on self-driving and the price cuts to the self-driving tech has to really piss off early adopters.

I would be driving a Tesla had my 2022 VW arrived 1 month later from Germany. The price cuts to the Model Y and Model 3 along with the re-instituted tax credit in eary 2023 would have made me cancel my VW. But I must say, after over a year with the ID.4 it's really a dream to drive. The current software has been stable and 99% of my gripes are with Electrify America network and some fixes to the car that should be super simple, but I'm learning to just deal with.

My very simple dream list of fixes, if VW is listening:

A) Add auto-lock feature to car that locks door when Key Fob is 10 feet or so away. (Door handle lock work 50% of the time.. and I'm tired of fishing my keys out of my pocket to lock doors when i leave the car. Also design a better key fob... even with a case.. I hit the car alarm accidentally in my pocket far too often).

B) Allow more customizing of Multi-User menus system that doesn't require 3 clicks to change users every time you enter the car. Allow ability to tie user information to the key fob so it automatically detects user based on fob proximity. Or simplify menu clicks so it's a one click switch of users in interface.

C) Connect seat settings to key fob so when driver opens door seat adjusts to user automatically. (Wife is 5'2.. I'm 6'0... I've gotten used to manually pushing seat adjustment on the seat itself... but it's something so simple and convenient to tie these features to the key fob... most other vehicles have had this ability since mid-2000s).

That's it... a very simple list to make me much happier

I agree with all!!!

 

Do you recall where you've seen that?

I think maybe it was here.

I've been under the impression EA is the first to market in the US with a fully 15118-20 compliant system and we're just waiting for the other CPOs to catch up.

Well, I expect the EA end of it can be compliant since they’re part of Ford’s network (as are a dozen others). One could infer 2023 ID.4 would then be if EA didn’t do anything special for VW. What’s confusing to me is that both 3.2.12 and 3.5 2023 models are EA PNC supported, but earlier 3.2.12 are not.

 

One could infer 2023 ID.4 would then be if EA didn’t do anything special for VW.

EA did something very special just for 2023 VWs, and its only good for the free plan, which is the special part. If you buy a used one, or your free plan expires, you don't have P&C any more. So its not true P&C until VW figures out a way to attach a credit card to it in the US (as they have done in EU.)

 

My fingers are crossed well see it included in our first "real" post 3.2.12 OTA!

 

Shoot, maybe I shouldn't have been so hasty to delete my free plan profile.

 

Well I didn’t hire on to do their book keeping. I fully expected to be charged full price but if they can’t keep up with their record keeping so be it.

 

Okay who snitched? It didn’t show a charge on the pedestal screen but charge history on the EA application shows an eleven dollar charge for today.