Doesn't seem like it would be that much different to have the same connectivity with the app setup, and just charge a saved card, but maybe I'm missing some nuance?

I agree. It makes no sense that VW cannot get true P&C working for all ID.4. VW is the one who says its only for 23s and only if you are on the free plan.

Since VW doesn't yet offer 2023 owners a place to input their credit card number for charging, I can only guess that they're not ready yet, which might be why they're using this EA shortcut.

It sounds like they do offer a place for it to charge a card when the session is >30mins. and its in the myVW app as mentioned above (or is it the EA app?). So limiting it to the free plan make no sense. Maybe they are worried about security with lots of transactions going through the buggy myVW app?

 

It sounds like they do offer a place for it to charge a card when the session is >30mins. and its in the myVW app as mentioned above.

I missed that. Where in the myVW app? I assumed mtc was talking about the credit card we all enter into the Electrify America app when we sign up for our free changing plans?

 

I could even imagine financial regulatory issues, but who knows! I'm sure it'll get sorted soon enough as it could be a major convenience selling point, even a profit center for VW.

But for a company who has had their hands all over the development of P&C, it's unbelievable how behind the curve they are.

 

I could even imagine financial regulatory issues, but who knows! I'm sure it'll get sorted soon enough as it could be a major convenience selling point, even a profit center for VW.

But for a company who has had their hands all over the development of P&C, it's unbelievable how behind the curve they are.

Now let's talk about V2x. 😜

 

t seems that for Tesla Superchargers to work with 3rd-party EVs, the least that needs to happen is plug-and-charge, as there is no manual "authorize payment" option for Supercharger stalls without a Magic Dock.

Plug and charge and working at Tesla Superchargers are two completely different things. Superchargers can be authorized from the Tesla app, no plug and charge needed. I believe this is how it is being done with other makes that are further along with their deal with Tesla. Even if VW does finally implement plug and charge for CCS, there's no guaranty that it will talk to NACS. Your car came from the factory with the expectation that it would have CCS fast charging and only CCS. Any charging that you ever get from Tesla, even if you have to hop 3 times and stand on 1 foot, is a bonus.

Plug and charge at Tesla Superchargers would be a nice to have feature but I don't think that VW ever promised that. TBH, even plug and charge at EA is not a big deal - somehow people have been charging their cars all these years without plug and charge. How many seconds does not having plug and charge add to the charging process? VW in many respects overpromised and underdelivered on many small things (cough, OTA updates) but the car is fundamentally sound and usable despite that. VW is an experienced car maker and a lousy software house. Who could have imagined that would be the case? If you wanted the opposite then you should have bought a Tesla.

 

The plug and charge implementation is governed by the specifications in ISO15118. And NACS promises to deliver plug-and-charge using the same specifications.

Usually the problems arise in that sometimes these standards are ambiguous, and different people might interpret them in slightly different ways. Most of these issues can be uncovered with extensive testing - there are organizations (CharIN) that have representatives from various manufacturers (chargers and vehicles) all show up at the same place, and they can to hands-on testing to uncover problems.

The main problem with getting plug-and-charge from Tesla has more to do with payment and authentication. When Tesla opened up to Ford, there needed to be a way for users to set up a payment method in the Ford app, and then there needed to be some communications between Tesla and Ford so that Tesla got paid by the driver for the charging sessions.

Now in the 2023MY, VW has plug-and-charge kind of working with EA, but the payment method is still configured in the EA app, and not the VW app. Earlier cars are nominally running exactly the same software as 2023, so in theory something similar could be pushed out there too. But the way plug-and-charge was envisioned was that the driver shouldn't need to open up accounts with each and every CPO - the payment method should only need to be set up by the driver in one location, probably the app that is maintained by the auto manufacturer.

Recent chaos at Tesla has kind of thrown a lot of this in doubt - it remains to be seen where things go from here.

 

To qualify for NEVI finding – and in fact for every DCFC I've ever visited (excluding Superchargers and purposefully excluding L2) – point-of-sale credit card transactions are a requirement.

And I agree, that's a good thing!

But apps are good for four reasons:

1. Easiest way to front a loyalty program for discounted rates
2. Possibility for cheaper transaction price by wrestling control from the credit card company – though with average session costs over $10 I don't expect this has much impact
3. Allows user to see real time status of chargers prior to arrival (although under NEVI this info needs to be publicly available for sites like Plugshare and VW's own internal nav to read)
4. Monitor charge session from the app after plugging in and walking away

The whole app vs. website thing is getting blurred again. A lot of apps I use are websites in disguise and I can barely tell the difference.

 

To qualify for NEVI finding – and in fact for every DCFC I've ever visited (excluding Superchargers and purposefully excluding L2) – point-of-sale credit card transactions are a requirement.

And I agree, that's a good thing!

But apps are good for four reasons:

1. Easiest way to front a loyalty program for discounted rates
2. Possibility for cheaper transaction price by wrestling control from the credit card company – though with average session costs over $10 I don't expect this has much impact
3. Allows user to see real time status of chargers prior to arrival (although under NEVI this info needs to be publicly available for sites like Plugshare and VW's own internal nav to read)
4. Monitor charge session from the app after plugging in and walking away

The whole app vs. website thing is getting blurred again. A lot of apps I use are websites in disguise and I can barely tell the difference.

I don't see an easy way to avoid credit card transaction fees. You are paying with one in one way or another (unless the app allows you to use ACH).

The problem with credit card readers is that they break sometimes.

 

Yes my state is another where all of the Tesla Superchargers at key locations are V2. We do have a magic dock site but it doesn’t really plug any gaps after the I 20 EA site opened 2 or 3 weeks ago.

 

Well, Magic Dock rollout started with 10 locations in February 2023 and they're up to 70 today, so that's not nothing.

I'm surprised Tesla is continuing on this venture since all the manufacturers are making the switch to NACS. Seems like an unnecessary short term expense with not much long term gain that they're not really compelled to move forward with.

 

But we all know that it will take a while before all new vehicles are NACS and even then, there are a lot of CCS vehicles out there.

 

It won't matter. What matters is when Tesla allows access for each brand. Adapters will be plentiful. CCS or NACS ports won't be a factor for a while because NACS cars will need to carry CCS adapters for quite some time, just like CCS cars will need to carry NACS adapters. I'd bet it'll be a decade from now before this all hashes out and NACS is the norm, and even then there'll still be a good many CCS cars that will be using NACS adapters on the regular.

 

GM might not start getting J3400 adapters until Ford and Rivian have what they need. I suspect GM may still be getting their adapters at the end of the calendar year, especially if Volvo and Polestar get a few simultaneously. I don’t know if Mercedes will get any this year or have to wait until next.

Nissan and manufacturers later on the list may ship vehicles with native connectors before their adapter turn but will still need adapters for previously sold vehicles. If Tesla turns on access for a native connector brand at that time, older vehicle owners might be able to use third party adapters, unless Tesla controls access by VIN year.

 

Agreed, working Plug & Charge will likely be necessary with VWs because our cars don't freely give up VINs. Perhaps there's some other signature that will identify the car as a VW, but who knows? We'll see when we see.

However it plays out, we've got a wait.

 

Agreed, working Plug & Charge will likely be necessary with VWs because our cars don't freely give up VINs. Perhaps there's some other signature that will identify the car as a VW, but who knows? We'll see when we see.

However it plays out, we've got a wait.

plug & charge is irrelevant to magicdocs/nacs. We can all use magicdocs (even us ‘21 ID.4 owners) now w/o plug & charge…

 

I think something is fishy with delivering the Tesla adapters.
They are not really high tech and to take that long to provide the for Ford and Rivians makes me think that Tesla is stalling.
Vw being at the end of the line I have a feeling is going to be 2026 before we can use them.
Maybe but that time we won’t need them.

 

Tesla is apparently suing some of the non-Tesla adapter makers for making unlicensed products. I'm sure that $ plays a part (it always does) but there are real safety concerns about something that has 150kw of electricity flowing thru it at 400V. It's one thing to make a crappy 5w USB adapter but this is something else.

But the physical adapter part of this is really not the issue. If Tesla is having supplier problems with their adapters, someone else could make them and make them to work safely. The real issue is related to software, billing, Tesla making arrangements with mfrs to change their future cars over to NACS, etc. If it was only the adapters then everyone could be using Superchargers tomorrow. The fact that Musk fired the entire Supercharger team I'm sure didn't help.

The only way you are NOT going to need them in 2026 is if you don't own your current ID.4 anymore. The entire industry is going over to NACS and CCS chargers are going to become more and more rare. Eventually you WILL get an adapter and access to the Supercharger network and you will want if if not strictly speaking "need" it.

 

I totally agree that only authorized adapters should be used and if Tesla makes them available no one will take any chances to use unauthorized ones.

I am hoping that the CCS charging infrastructure deployment picks up and if I have the option not to mess with adapters I would.

I am pretty sure charging will feature both CCS and NACS including Tesla.
If this develops as a business you want to make the life of your customers as easy as possible.
Adapters sounds like major maintenance issue no matter who does it.

 

I totally agree that only authorized adapters should be used and if Tesla makes them available no one will take any chances to use unauthorized ones.

Consider this: who manufacturers the charging handle that you use? Who manufacturers the cord? Who is the maker of the the CCS handle & cable at the nearest DCFC station?

What is "authorized" when manufacturing to an ISO-published standard? Who is the authorizing party?

These adapters aren't a black art. They need to be capable of safely conducting a known maximum current and connecting ports with published dimensions. Industry doesn't need Tesla's wisdom to tell us what's safe.

 

Ford is giving EV owners more time to reserve Tesla NACS adaptors for free

Ford is giving EV owners more time to reserve a free Tesla NACS adaptor. The deadline is being pushed back...

electrek.co

 

I would probably spend the money to buy any adapter today just to use it when there is overcrowding at EA.
Can’t stand waiting more than 20 mins to charge.
I was really surprised to see so many Mach-e owners waiting for 5 hours at Quartzsite 2 weeks ago. When there is a 100 Tesla site across the interstate.

 

The key is healthy competition.
That’s where the government should step in and regulate the market.
First I would separate the charging from the car business.
Second, restricting access should be illegal and mandate whatever standard they choose while also supporting CCS.
Then , like any other business, they should pursue customers by competing in the market.

 

First I would separate the charging from the car business.

You mean separate Tesla from Superchargers? Ooh, that's a sticky one.

The government is attempting to coax Tesla in that direction by offering NEVI funds with stipulations.

But I think a much more valid counter argument would be that government should require EV makers to buy in to the charging business. What CCS has isn't working when compared to what Tesla has done.

Some day DC fast charging will be a sustainable business, but today, so much up -front investment is required that there needs to be a big money startup-like push, and who stands to gain the most from it? Car makers and if course consumers (vis-a-vis our taxpayer dollar backing).

 

Charging issues has a detrimental effect on EV adoption putting in danger manufacturing.
At this point it’s best to be pragmatic and have some consultation with all parts involved.
Since only Tesla is really the only sustainable model they should bribe them with incentives such as abandoning the NEVI requirements in order to speed up the NACS transition.
I would even provide a grant to Tesla to complete the transition ASAP.if the adapters work abandon CCS cables, screens and CC readers.
Get a basic standard out there and refine later.

 

To wholesale "abandon" CCS at the dispenser

There are a million CCS cars on the road, and they're going to be out there in the wild for at least the next decade and then some.

As I see it, the reality is that with this transition, we're all going to be carrying adapters for a while, either CCS to NACS, or NACS to CCS. I don't think it benefits anybody to move quickly at the chargers.

At the car's charging port? Yes, lets make the switch immediately. But you have to accept that "immediately" means a year or two down the road. It's not just the charging port that's getting changed out. J3400 brings some new electrical requirements with it, namely the 277 volt support, that I assume with most manufacturers that's going to be a redesigned voltage converter and who know what other subtle changes. I don't expect any big auto manufacturer is nimble enough to make that change overnight.

 

Obviously, abandon CCS as a NEVI requirement.
If everyone has decided to move to NACS DC charging why deploying new CCS cables.
Traveling in a CCS car right now is a major inconvenience.
Only Tesla has a solution and government can use a stick or carrot approach to speed up the transition.
Tesla is de facto the monopoly and will have to be separated from the car business one way or another through some sort of financial compensation scheme.
With the current situation the CCS cars will slowly die down and the manufacturing in US and Canada will suffer.

 

The Supercharger network was built at a time when there were huge profits on Tesla vehicles. There are still charging deserts within it and those compete for funding with sites that need expansion That funding has been drastically reduced by vehicle price cuts and lower profits. As a result, growth of the network had to be deeply cut. It has always been a low profit loss leader to sell cars and couldn’t survive at the same quality as a standalone business without untenable increases in charging costs.

Manufacturers of CCS vehicles have been in the opposite situation. Ford has racked up billions in losses and GM is still predicting when their EV business might turn a profit. They are both investing in charging to the extent they can, as are Rivian and Mercedes, not to mention all the members of IONNA. By and large, CCS charging is offered by charge point operators (with some sites for vehicle manufacturers), power companies, and increasingly oil companies. Like gas stations, CCS charging is a collective of individual efforts.

Then along came NEVI to not only fund some up front costs for some individual efforts but to try to give some centralized direction to the CCS build out. However, by having the states administer it, the dream of a nationwide NEVI network with sites every 50 miles may never come to fruition. While some states have made round two contingent awards and may have plans for 2b and even 3, some are essentially yet to begin.

Then along came NACS/J3400 which pretty much all vehicle manufacturers have signed on to. They likely have long term contracts for 240 volt AC onboard chargers and CCS receptacles and except perhaps for Hyundai, nothing coming anytime soon for 277VAC chargers or J3400 receptacles. If there were one million CCS vehicles on US roads at the end of 2023, there will probably be at least two million by the end of 2025 and more beyond. It could also be even by then only half of them have NACS to CCS1 adapters, given Tesla remains the sole source (for access to Superchargers).

The free market will do what it will with EV DCFC. I believe for the next two years, non-Tesla providers will have little demand for J3400 charging and can’t compete with the Supercharger network. OTOH, they have current and increasing demand for CCS charging, again, for the next two years. If they want immediate return on sites being deployed today, they will be CCS.

That brings us to the government’s future role, which could typically be slow to change. Round two of NEVI is virtually contracted through 2025 for CCS in several states. For future sites, should those states be allowed to continue with CCS, required to switch to J3400, or required to have both which could give Magic Dock a leg up?

What about Florida which hasn’t even started NEVI? Will they be allowed to go all J3400 from the get go or be required to have both? If the government wants Tesla more involved the latter enticement may be the only constitutional way to do that. But it is the states which ultimately make the awards and if non-Tesla providers propose Magic Dock alternatives, they, not Tesla, may win.

For someone buying a road tripping EV today the clear choice wrt charging is a Tesla with its included J1772 adapter and optional $250 CCS1 adapter. The belt and suspenders drivers will also opt for the optional $250 120/240VAC mobile connector. And there’s a frunk to keep it all in without having to remove cargo to get under the floor. IMO, it’s the current, available no-brainer solution, but not every buyer is willing to make the Tesla choice. It’s for them all this CCS support is needed.

 

Regardless of whether you like NACS or CCS1 or CHAdeMO or "ratty extension cord with duct tape to cover the torn insulation so that I can connect to the dryer outlet in the basement," wrapping a wet cloth around the connector to help charging rates in hot weather by fooling the temperature sensors seems like about the most brain dead idea out there. Not only is this a case of trying to bypass the safety features, it is a case of mixing electricity and water. The arc flash could be a real spectacle!

 

Could this become a new Darwin Award category?

 

So

I think there is not much to worry about. I looked at at tear down of an adapter and it is all mechanical. looks like the only thing onboard are temperature sensors (no digital communication so it is just a pass through). I bought a $65 dollar nacs to ccs adapter from ebay and tried it on my sons bolt and it worked fine. For the chevy the charge session is started on the app pretty much like EA. so i don't see any reason why the ID4 would have a problem as long as the vehicle type is white listed in the supercharger network

 

I agree. There are some people who are gullible suckers as soon as you say "safety" and who would only put VW brand air in their tires if VW told them to but personally I like to live dangerously and am buying the cheapest Chinese adapter I can find on Amazon. If the car catches on fire, I have insurance. I am not paying VW $200+ for a hunk of plastic with a few copper contacts. The cheapest one I have seen on Amazon is like $69 after coupon but they seem to be falling by the day so I am waiting until Tesla actually opens the network to VW. In addition, there is still some (slim) chance that VW will give us the adapters for free.

Speaking of which, earlier we heard "June" but we are 10 days away from June and no further word.

 

It's probably just Tesla playing it safe. I didn't see the fine print, but on their main page re: Supercharger access right off the top they say "adapters provided by your vehicle manufacturer."

I think, for launch, that's the safest way to go: ensure the other vehicle's manufacturer is "full in" by making them provide an adapter. That way if anything goes awry, they can point fingers right back at a very clear target.

Of course, these being dumb pass-through devices, there is no way to discern what adapter is being used. But at least if something goes haywire, Tesla (and the other automaker) can say "we told ya."

 

I believe it was end of June.
Yeah I’m as anxious as everyone else but please do not encourage purchasing of cheap adapters.
Lectron is 170 shipped… surely 100$ will not make or break an id4 owner.
We have enough problems as it is.

 

do not encourage purchasing of cheap adapters.
Lectron is 170 shipped

Price alone does not indicate the quality of an adapter.

Lectron, A2Z and others have undeniably invested capital into the development of their adapters, and they have every right to try to change a premium to recoup those expenses.

But there's not $170 worth of materials in these adapters, and once they're commodity items, a well designed unit ought to easily come in under $100.

Just look at the state of market for CCS1 to Tesla adapters.

 

Bill of materials would probably be 5 $, but design and testing makes all the difference.
UL certification should be a minimum.

In the absence of Tesla or VW, I barely trust Lectron but for now it would have to do.
I’ll probably buy again the OEM later.

I prefer to minimize any risks I can if cost and effort is not too much.

 

As of now there are zero UL approved adapters on the market although they are supposed coming. Amphenol is supposedly going to be the 1st to market.