Front wheel versus rear wheel, 6.2 kW versus 11 kW.

 

Hey look everyone it's a BZ4X!

Sorry, I just can't get over the Toyota, and comparing them side by side just amplifies how attractive the ID.4 is.

 

I always have the feeling when I see the Toyota.
This one has to go to the body shop to paint the rest of the fenders.
They can paint this while you fast charge.
Time enough.

 

They can paint this while you fast charge.
Time enough.

”WARNING: YOU CANNOT FAST CHARGE” /s
🤮
They’ll be able to paint a da Vinci on those fenders. You can’t slow charge very well,either.

 

Wow, no fast charging? That limits the car to 'around the block' use at home (IMO). Not good.

 

It fast charges slowly.
It slow charges slowly.
Protecting their 10 year battery warranty.
Sorry. I sarcasm edited (/s) my post.

 

Well, he's wrong in the sense that they don't use the same motor in the front and the back of the VW. The front motor in the VW is not the same as the rear

 

BZ4X is actually comes from the sound people make when they see the car or its spec sheet for the first time.

Still better than the Honda Clarity, named for the zen acceptance of one's own life choices after realizing another human designed that car.

 

Wow! I took a quick look at the charging rate for the buzzy-forks. Motortrend said that "it took 64 minutes to charge to 80 percent" - Ouch!

For years I have said "Wait until Toyota jumps into the EV market." As a follow up, I have to say "No, seriously, wait until Toyota gets serious about EVs!"

 

Im not impressed with Toyota and Honda so far. Seems like they have their collective heads in the sand hoping their hybrids will keep them going.

I totally understand that currently some will be better served by hybrids than BEV. This will not always be the case though and manufacturers snoozing now could very well find their dominant position in the market to be impacted. Just recently Akio Toyoda was telling the world “that the radical transition to electric vehicles for the company will cost millions of Japanese workers to lose their jobs in automotive.” Not a glowing endorsement of BEV and not surprising when one looks at the BZ4X…

 

Im not impressed with Toyota and Honda so far. Seems like they have their collective heads in the sand hoping their hybrids will keep them going.

I totally understand that currently some will be better served by hybrids than BEV. This will not always be the case though and manufacturers snoozing now could very well find their dominant position in the market to be impacted. Just recently Akio Toyoda was telling the world “that the radical transition to electric vehicles for the company will cost millions of Japanese workers to lose their jobs in automotive.” Not a glowing endorsement of BEV and not surprising when one looks at the BZ4X…

I think Toyota's strategy (and Honda's too) has been to use hybrids as a bridge to hydrogen fuel cell powered EVs. That may still win out in the end, but I think it's likely a couple of decades away. The hydrogen distribution is the tricky bit (just like the electricity distribution has been).

Dave

 

The thing is, we have seen fuel cell vehicles. They work, but they are just incredibly inconvenient, and not very efficient. Sure, they will get better, but for now, Hydrogen powered vehicles will remain a small subset. Meanwhile, 98% of all cars and trucks will be taken over by BEVs.

 

The slow charging on the AWD is either going to kill this car and maybe other Toyota's EVs, or so many loyal Toyota fans will buy it, not understand this has horrible charging speeds, and state all EVs are horrible.

 

The annoying thing about the Toyo-baru is that, in Europe and Japan, the AWD gets the same 150kw-capable Panasonic batteries as the FWD Toyota. In the US and Canada, the AWDs all get the old-school CATLs.
Subaru is practically the state-car of Maine. Buyers who don't do their due diligence, and stop at a Level 3 en route to Grandma's house for Christmas, are gonna be wicked pissed.

 

Watch Toyota bZ4X AWD Fast Charging Test: 0-80% SOC Took One Hour

A fast-charging test of a 2022 Toyota bZ4X AWD, equipped with a 72.8 kWh battery, disappoints as the car required 25 minutes to reach 50% SOC.

insideevs.com

 

Wow an average of a 0.8C charging rate. The bZ4X is in no rush to charge (and Toyota is in no rush to sell them), it seems.

 

The protecting the battery argument doesn’t hold water with me … even a 50kW DC fast charge is much more stressful for the battery than the highest amperage L2 charger. I think they just set their performance targets so long ago that they’re no longer current. This thing (low-to-mid 200 miles of range and 6.6kW L2 charger onboard, and slow fast charging) would have been amazing in 2017, competing with Chevy Bolts and Hyundai Kona EVs.

For more on its slow charging, see: The 2023 Toyota bZ4X's Charging Speed Plummets When Temperature Drops

 

Is it BMW with the Monkey Butt grills?

 

Beaver teeth! 🤣

 

I can't agree more. BMW and Lexus are luxury brands but the designs are ridiculous. Maybe I'm just old fashioned. I love the ID4 look. The EV6/I5 aren't bad either...much better than the Japanese cars.

 

I haven't really been feeling Toyota's design philosophy for the past 20 years. They have been openly adverse to the production of full BEV's and only started thinking about creating the Bz4X after they've milked all they can with the Prius drivetrain. They put a minimum effort into the design. The car is definitely built to a price point and car enthusiasts are not fooled. Mid-sized battery, with a slow max charge rate means you are not going to take this car on a road trip and will opt for an ICE car. This has been an ongoing thing with Toyota PHEVs too. 3.3Kw charging unless you opt for the Limited and pay EXTRA for the technology package just to get 6.6Kw charging. By the time you can get the faster charging, you're looking at a $48k car.

The ID.4 is probably the best value you can get in an EV. For the price of $42k-$52k (effectively $32k-$45k after incentives) , it has the longest range (240-280miles), fastest charge (11Kw), most usable cargo capacity (30-64 cu ft), and the best features that really matters. The design is an evolution of classic VW design. There's nothing that shouts "look at me, I'm trying to be different!", but that ok since it speaks to the conservative side of me.

 

What confuses me is Toyota already builds electric cars!

They might be cars saddled with an ICE power train, but that only means they're immensely complicated electric cars.

Straight EVs should be a cakewalk for them.

Why Toyota would enter this segment half heatedly, I have no idea. It will just sully their name and cost them money. It will have no significant impact on the worldwide transition to electrification.

Maybe they're taking the gamble that nobody will care about charging speed, and what they save in component and warranty costs they take as extra profit.

 

What confuses me is Toyota already builds electric cars!

They might be cars saddled with an ICE power train, but that only means they're immensely complicated electric cars.

Straight EVs should be a cakewalk for them.

Why Toyota would enter this segment half heatedly, I have no idea. It will just sully their name and cost them money. It will have no significant impact on the worldwide transition to electrification.

Maybe they're taking the gamble that nobody will care about charging speed, and what they save in component and warranty costs they take as extra profit.

There's nothing wrong with the Toyota's powertrain. It meets the modern day minimum for the size/ weight of the car. But, when you only allow the car to charge at 6.6kw, it detracts on the pleasure of owning a pure EV. They are banking on the typical Toyota buyer knowing nothing about EV's to save a grand on the cost of the car. I'm just disappointed at the slow progress the Japanese makes are making on EV's.

 

Or maybe they'll use them as negative influencers on the lot. "Yeah, we've got an electric car here. It sucks, though. You should buy a fossil-fuel car, like this one over here!"

Think I'm wrong? What about the name? That is DEFINITELY chosen to drive people away.

 

Think I'm wrong? What about the name? That is DEFINITELY chosen to drive people away.

It probably sounds amazing in Japanese. LOL

 

The biggest appeal of the ToyoBaru EV is that it is basically a full BEV version of the RAV4 Prime. Even Redline Review mentioned how much it drives like it.

The Prime is a non-fuss SUV. Everything just works. It's Toyota reliability on steroids. I'm still on various RAV4 forums and the number of problems reported is almost zero.

The ID.4 has enough ground clearance that I can't see owners wanting to switch to the bz4x/Solterra though but it might make a good second EV for commuting and short-trips.

 

Yes Toyota is very reliable.
BUT
Name one development, function, design that they released first.
I mean that the latest developments always come from German car industries and are only adopted after the first year problems.
That way I can also make a reliable car.

 

Here’s an example of a friend who had a VW and got rid of it because it wasn’t reliable… turns out he’s never changed the oil! Now he’s got a Toyota and loves it 😉

 

Oh don't I know it, my first car had a distributor and a carb with a choke and needed timing adjustments, and actually wasn't unreliable, just needed regular TLC. It's amazing how much we've come to take for granted because there's no getting around the fact that even with computer controls and sound and vibration control, it's still a massive fire breathing monster under the hood.

 

I still miss having a manual choke on my motorcycles.

 

What's a manual choke?

 

Yea, exactly @Manybees … most big companies have stopped or are stopping ICE engine development. But to answer the question asked earlier? The reason ICE vehicles can be more reliable than EVs is software… A Toyota Corolla (traditionally the most reliable car on the road) has no fancy software, and with decades of refinement of a powertrain engineered for reliability not performance, there almost nothing to go wrong. In contrast, EVs are new technology so while an electric motor is less complex than a ICE, there may be some teething issues for new parts, but the biggest issues seem to be software glitches because manufacturers have felt that they need to add a ton of computing power and software to EV. (Tesla’s fault, probably!)

 

...A Toyota Corolla (traditionally the most reliable car on the road) has no fancy software, and with decades of refinement of a powertrain engineered for reliability not performance, there almost nothing to go wrong. In contrast, EVs are new technology so while an electric motor is less complex than a ICE, there may be some teething issues for new parts, but the biggest issues seem to be software glitches ...

With your Corolla example -- well, with all of these examples -- we have to separate the ECU from everything else IF we're simply talking ICE vs. EV reliability.

When an EV "breaks" I'm thinking of the motor controllers, the power inverter, any electronics directly involved in propelling the vehicle. The expensive parts.

If we're getting into screens and infotainment and central locking and telematics, then I think that becomes a different conversation.

When we're talking about a simple Corolla, "fancy" would be a turbo, variable valve timing, port injection, dual-clutch transmissions -- add-ons that complicate a simple ICE drivetrain.

 

d287-
“Yea, exactly @Manybees … most big companies have stopped or are stopping ICE engine development. But to answer the question asked earlier? The reason ICE vehicles can be more reliable than EVs is software… A Toyota Corolla (traditionally the most reliable car on the road) has no fancy software, and with decades of refinement of a powertrain engineered for reliability not performance, there almost nothing to go wrong. In contrast, EVs are new technology so while an electric motor is less complex than a ICE, there may be some teething issues for new parts, but the biggest issues seem to be software glitches because manufacturers have felt that they need to add a ton of computing power and software to EV. (Tesla’s fault, probably!)”

Or you can look at NHTSA engine problems and see fires and parts just flying out of the engine block. Pretty sure that is just bad parts engineering.

 

Edmunds Compares: 2023 Toyota bZ4X vs. 2023 Volkswagen ID.4

Edmunds Compares: 2023 Toyota bZ4X vs. 2023 Volkswagen ID.4

Toyota largely pioneered hybrid vehicles, and its extensive lineup of gas-saving models today is a testament to that. But it’s taken a while for Toyota to finally come out with its first mass-market electric vehicle: the all-new 2023 Toyota bZ4X .

apnews.com

Edmund Bot submits article to AP? LOL

 

Don't forget the Buzzy Forks abysmal charging rate and it's wheels tendency to travel in separate random paths. The wheel problem is not minor. Ten years ago a young college coed was killed by a tire and wheel that came off of a semi truck. It left the truck, crossed the median, crossed the adjoining lanes, crossed 2 ditches and went across a paved plaza at a rest area. Most people dodged it but she wasn't looking in that direction. I had just finished a construction project at that rest area a few months before.

 

In all vehicles you had to manually pull the choke before you started your vehicle. It richened the fuel mixture and you kept it on about two to five minutes depending on how cold it was outside. Some vehicles would stall if you tried to go before pushing it back in to off. Many Onan generators still use one because they have a carburetors.