[Ida Red]

The US now has 1 DC fast charging station for every 15 gas stations

DC fast charging station installation is gaining momentum in the US – Q1 2024 saw a 7.6% increase to nearly 8,200 total.

electrek.co

NEMI is the key for the future, adapter is backward looking.

I think this headline is very misleading. 15 to 1 is not a fair equivalent. How many pump handles are there at the average gas station? How many chargers are there at the average DC charging station? How long does it take to fill up at the gas station vs. the charge? In other words, how many customers per day can the average gas station serve vs. the average charging station?

2nd, every gas station in America has gas for your car. The electric stations are split up so out instead of being 15 to 1, for any particular car owner it's more like 30 to 1. Last night I looked at plugshare and I noticed that from King of Prussia PA to Harrisburg PA along the PA turnpike (the major E-W road) a distance of 90 miles, there are zero CCS fast chargers. How many gas stations are there in that 90 mile stretch? And in general, in the whole middle of the state once you get beyond the densely populated east (Philly and Allentown) and until you get to the west (Pittsburgh) in the entire middle of the state a stretch of almost 300 miles there are maybe a 1/2 a dozen fast chargers. There are no "gasoline deserts" like this in most of America.

PS I think this same publication had a headline that Teslas only have 65% of their battery capacity after 3 years. But then if you read past the clickbait headline, the same study said that Teslas only have 70% of their EPA capacity when new. In other words, whoever wrote the study had their own definition of range different from the EPAs but in reality the car only lost 5% of its range.

 

[ericy]

Plug and charge and working at Tesla Superchargers are two completely different things. Superchargers can be authorized from the Tesla app, no plug and charge needed. I believe this is how it is being done with other makes that are further along with their deal with Tesla. Even if VW does finally implement plug and charge for CCS, there's no guaranty that it will talk to NACS. Your car came from the factory with the expectation that it would have CCS fast charging and only CCS. Any charging that you ever get from Tesla, even if you have to hop 3 times and stand on 1 foot, is a bonus.

Plug and charge at Tesla Superchargers would be a nice to have feature but I don't think that VW ever promised that. TBH, even plug and charge at EA is not a big deal - somehow people have been charging their cars all these years without plug and charge. How many seconds does not having plug and charge add to the charging process? VW in many respects overpromised and underdelivered on many small things (cough, OTA updates) but the car is fundamentally sound and usable despite that. VW is an experienced car maker and a lousy software house. Who could have imagined that would be the case? If you wanted the opposite then you should have bought a Tesla.

The plug and charge implementation is governed by the specifications in ISO15118. And NACS promises to deliver plug-and-charge using the same specifications.

Usually the problems arise in that sometimes these standards are ambiguous, and different people might interpret them in slightly different ways. Most of these issues can be uncovered with extensive testing - there are organizations (CharIN) that have representatives from various manufacturers (chargers and vehicles) all show up at the same place, and they can to hands-on testing to uncover problems.

The main problem with getting plug-and-charge from Tesla has more to do with payment and authentication. When Tesla opened up to Ford, there needed to be a way for users to set up a payment method in the Ford app, and then there needed to be some communications between Tesla and Ford so that Tesla got paid by the driver for the charging sessions.

Now in the 2023MY, VW has plug-and-charge kind of working with EA, but the payment method is still configured in the EA app, and not the VW app. Earlier cars are nominally running exactly the same software as 2023, so in theory something similar could be pushed out there too. But the way plug-and-charge was envisioned was that the driver shouldn't need to open up accounts with each and every CPO - the payment method should only need to be set up by the driver in one location, probably the app that is maintained by the auto manufacturer.

Recent chaos at Tesla has kind of thrown a lot of this in doubt - it remains to be seen where things go from here.

 

[4gkjohnson]

Furthermore, it is impossible to predict what gyrations might happen on the Supercharger side of things in the next couple of years. With Elmo in charge, he might decide to sell the entire Tesla charging network to EA or ChargePoint to raise cash for his bloated personal paycheck.

Or he might require that you become a card carrying R and sign up for X to use the Tesla charging network lol

 

[Ida Red]

The plug and charge implementation is governed by the specifications in ISO15118. And NACS promises to deliver plug-and-charge using the same specifications.

Usually the problems arise in that sometimes these standards are ambiguous, and different people might interpret them in slightly different ways. Most of these issues can be uncovered with extensive testing - there are organizations (CharIN) that have representatives from various manufacturers (chargers and vehicles) all show up at the same place, and they can to hands-on testing to uncover problems.

The main problem with getting plug-and-charge from Tesla has more to do with payment and authentication. When Tesla opened up to Ford, there needed to be a way for users to set up a payment method in the Ford app, and then there needed to be some communications between Tesla and Ford so that Tesla got paid by the driver for the charging sessions.

Now in the 2023MY, VW has plug-and-charge kind of working with EA, but the payment method is still configured in the EA app, and not the VW app. Earlier cars are nominally running exactly the same software as 2023, so in theory something similar could be pushed out there too. But the way plug-and-charge was envisioned was that the driver shouldn't need to open up accounts with each and every CPO - the payment method should only need to be set up by the driver in one location, probably the app that is maintained by the auto manufacturer.

Recent chaos at Tesla has kind of thrown a lot of this in doubt - it remains to be seen where things go from here.

Here is an idea - what if you could carry a small plastic card in your wallet that would be a sort of universal payment method for ANYTHING. You could also link this card to your phone so it would act as a sort of virtual card. Anytime you wanted to pay for ANYTHING - say gasoline or electric charging or a ham sandwich, you would briefly tap or swipe this card or your phone on the pump or charger or a payment terminal and it would authorize the transaction and charge it to your account. It would only take a second. I propose to name this device a "credit card". How did the ICE auto industry get by for 120 years without "hose and charge"?

I also find this whole nonsense where you have to have an "app" for everything a big step backward. In the pre-smartphone era you had a web browser and if you wanted to visit VW you would type the URL (U for universal) for VW and if you wanted to visit your charge provider you would type the URL for them and you didn't have to install a different "app" (which doesn't work 1/2 the time) for each organization that you wanted to transact with.

 

[Nai3t]

To qualify for NEVI finding – and in fact for every DCFC I've ever visited (excluding Superchargers and purposefully excluding L2) – point-of-sale credit card transactions are a requirement.

And I agree, that's a good thing!

But apps are good for four reasons:

1. Easiest way to front a loyalty program for discounted rates
2. Possibility for cheaper transaction price by wrestling control from the credit card company – though with average session costs over $10 I don't expect this has much impact
3. Allows user to see real time status of chargers prior to arrival (although under NEVI this info needs to be publicly available for sites like Plugshare and VW's own internal nav to read)
4. Monitor charge session from the app after plugging in and walking away

The whole app vs. website thing is getting blurred again. A lot of apps I use are websites in disguise and I can barely tell the difference.

 

[ericy]

To qualify for NEVI finding – and in fact for every DCFC I've ever visited (excluding Superchargers and purposefully excluding L2) – point-of-sale credit card transactions are a requirement.

And I agree, that's a good thing!

But apps are good for four reasons:

1. Easiest way to front a loyalty program for discounted rates
2. Possibility for cheaper transaction price by wrestling control from the credit card company – though with average session costs over $10 I don't expect this has much impact
3. Allows user to see real time status of chargers prior to arrival (although under NEVI this info needs to be publicly available for sites like Plugshare and VW's own internal nav to read)
4. Monitor charge session from the app after plugging in and walking away

The whole app vs. website thing is getting blurred again. A lot of apps I use are websites in disguise and I can barely tell the difference.

I don't see an easy way to avoid credit card transaction fees. You are paying with one in one way or another (unless the app allows you to use ACH).

The problem with credit card readers is that they break sometimes.

 

[Nai3t]

I don't see an easy way to avoid credit card transaction fees. You are paying with one in one way or another (unless the app allows you to use ACH).

The problem with credit card readers is that they break sometimes.

There's a per-transaction fee (in addition to the % of sale fee) that takes a bigger and bigger chunk of the total transaction amount the smaller the sale is. It's why a lot of merchants try to enforce minimum purchase amounts to use a card, and also why Starbucks prefers its customers load a balance, so they're paying for one $25 transaction instead of five $5 transactions.

But for a typical DCFC session, the session cost is usually higher than any balance threshold so I don't really see any savings there.

 

[Moe]

I don't see an easy way to avoid credit card transaction fees. You are paying with one in one way or another (unless the app allows you to use ACH).

The problem with credit card readers is that they break sometimes.

Pretty much all electronic payment methods rely on internet connectivity.

 

[Ida Red]

To qualify for NEVI finding – and in fact for every DCFC I've ever visited (excluding Superchargers and purposefully excluding L2) – point-of-sale credit card transactions are a requirement.

And I agree, that's a good thing!

But apps are good for four reasons:

1. Easiest way to front a loyalty program for discounted rates
2. Possibility for cheaper transaction price by wrestling control from the credit card company – though with average session costs over $10 I don't expect this has much impact
3. Allows user to see real time status of chargers prior to arrival (although under NEVI this info needs to be publicly available for sites like Plugshare and VW's own internal nav to read)
4. Monitor charge session from the app after plugging in and walking away

The whole app vs. website thing is getting blurred again. A lot of apps I use are websites in disguise and I can barely tell the difference.

I get the feeling that the providers are the ones that want to PUSH apps on the consumer and not vice versa. The apps are there for THEIR profit and convenience and not yours. I am always getting nagged to "install an app" for something that works perfectly well in a web browser. Like you say, once you arrive at the "app" that they have bugged you to install, it is just a thin shell around a web page anyway.

Of your 4 points, all could be handled easily without a provider "app". Punch in a loyalty # or scan a barcord. Even when you use an "app" the transaction is going to be handled thru a credit card anyway. As you say, real time status can be made available to other "apps" or over the web. #4 (real time status) of charging really belongs in your CAR's app and not the charge providers.

When a big corporation tells you that they are doing something "for your convenience" they are usually lying.

I think the new business model (charging) should be as close as possible (this includes the amount of time you need to spend) as the old business model (filling your car with gas) both because the old model has been honed for a century to work well and with great interoperability (you can go to any gas station for any car) and at competitive costs. This is what is going to be most acceptable to most consumers. Plug and charge in this context would be a nice to have but not a must have given that tapping your credit card or phone adds maybe 10 seconds to the refueling process.

 

[DrewMcG]

If you've been following the Magic Dock locations, you will realize that the availability is growing."

Really?! One magicdoc in Illinois. 2 in Michigan. None in Ohio. Magicdocs appear to have hit a brick wall. Really a shame considering how painfully slow the NACS adapter rollout has been for traditional manufacturers. That's not to mention that over half the Superchargers in some states--including Michigan--are V2 units that aren't even available to Ford and Rivian, and never will be unless Tesla upgrades them to V3s, V4s, or magicdocs. And that doesn't appear to be happening at all, or at least with any speed whatsoever.

 

[Froggy]

Yes my state is another where all of the Tesla Superchargers at key locations are V2. We do have a magic dock site but it doesn’t really plug any gaps after the I 20 EA site opened 2 or 3 weeks ago.

 

[Nai3t]

Well, Magic Dock rollout started with 10 locations in February 2023 and they're up to 70 today, so that's not nothing.

I'm surprised Tesla is continuing on this venture since all the manufacturers are making the switch to NACS. Seems like an unnecessary short term expense with not much long term gain that they're not really compelled to move forward with.

 

[Sid Jervis]

Well, Magic Dock rollout started with 10 locations in February 2023 and they're up to 70 today, so that's not nothing.

I'm surprised Tesla is continuing on this venture since all the manufacturers are making the switch to NACS. Seems like an unnecessary short term expense with not much long term gain that they're not really compelled to move forward with.

But we all know that it will take a while before all new vehicles are NACS and even then, there are a lot of CCS vehicles out there.

 

[Nai3t]

It won't matter. What matters is when Tesla allows access for each brand. Adapters will be plentiful. CCS or NACS ports won't be a factor for a while because NACS cars will need to carry CCS adapters for quite some time, just like CCS cars will need to carry NACS adapters. I'd bet it'll be a decade from now before this all hashes out and NACS is the norm, and even then there'll still be a good many CCS cars that will be using NACS adapters on the regular.

 

[Moe]

GM might not start getting J3400 adapters until Ford and Rivian have what they need. I suspect GM may still be getting their adapters at the end of the calendar year, especially if Volvo and Polestar get a few simultaneously. I don’t know if Mercedes will get any this year or have to wait until next.

Nissan and manufacturers later on the list may ship vehicles with native connectors before their adapter turn but will still need adapters for previously sold vehicles. If Tesla turns on access for a native connector brand at that time, older vehicle owners might be able to use third party adapters, unless Tesla controls access by VIN year.

 

[DrewMcG]

Well, Magic Dock rollout started with 10 locations in February 2023 and they're up to 70 today, so that's not nothing.

I'm surprised Tesla is continuing on this venture since all the manufacturers are making the switch to NACS. Seems like an unnecessary short term expense with not much long term gain that they're not really compelled to move forward with.

Are they still adding MagicDocs, though? I wish they would !! The MagicDocs in Marion, IL, and Beaver Dam, KY, help me get to/from Ann Arbor/AUstin. Still plenty of gaps in EA network for roadtrips, North/South (esp.) and East/West. I’m not holding my breath for VW to release an adaptor (they’re still “investigating” per their last press release in April! WTF; what’s to “investigate”— Ford and Rivian already have theirs out!). Especially now that Musk sh*tcanned the entire SuperCharger team. C’mon Rivian, fulfill your promise to open the Rivian Adventure Network to other cars!! I promise to seriosly conider a Rivian for my next EV—if you do so SOON!

 

[ericy]

Are they still adding MagicDocs, though? I wish they would !! The MagicDocs in Marion, IL, and Beaver Dam, KY, help me get to/from Ann Arbor/AUstin. Still plenty of gaps in EA network for roadtrips, North/South (esp.) and East/West. I’m not holding my breath for VW to release an adaptor (they’re still “investigating” per their last press release in April! WTF; what’s to “investigate”— Ford and Rivian already have theirs out!). Especially now that Musk sh*tcanned the entire SuperCharger team. C’mon Rivian, fulfill your promise to open the Rivian Adventure Network to other cars!! I promise to seriosly conider a Rivian for my next EV—if you do so SOON!

The newer V4 superchargees all have them, but they aren't turned on for CCS cars.

 

[Nai3t]

Are they still adding MagicDocs, though?
...
I’m not holding my breath for VW to release an adaptor (they’re still “investigating”...

I haven't tracked, I only have those two data points.

I doesn't matter if VW is "investigating," VW can't charge on Superchargers until Tesla turns them on. I seriously doubt a VW branded adapter will be necessary.

 

[ericy]

I haven't tracked, I only have those two data points.

I doesn't matter if VW is "investigating," VW can't charge on Superchargers until Tesla turns them on. I seriously doubt a VW branded adapter will be necessary.

They need to get plug and charge working for all cars. And that may mean adding a payment page to the phone app, and all that implies.

I suspect the engineering end of it is probably nearly done - at least as an engineering prototype. But VW is known for many layers of bureaucracy - sometimes it amazes me that they can accomplish anything.

 

[Nai3t]

Agreed, working Plug & Charge will likely be necessary with VWs because our cars don't freely give up VINs. Perhaps there's some other signature that will identify the car as a VW, but who knows? We'll see when we see.

However it plays out, we've got a wait.