[AZ EV Driver]

C’mon Rivian, fulfill your promise to open the Rivian Adventure Network to other cars!! I promise to seriosly conider (sic) a Rivian for my next EV—if you do so SOON!

Rivian has been talking a big game with my little town (Wickenburg, AZ) for the past 2 years. In early March of this year the town council approved some minor adjustments to their contract with Rivian. At that time, even though they had announced the future switch to NACS, and the plan to open their "Adventure Network" to other manufacturers, Rivian indicated that "the plan" was to have the 6 chargers in place by the end of the year equipped with CCS connectors for Rivian ONLY. But with plans to open them up to others in the future (yeah, really). On Friday July 5th, I drove by the planned construction site in a town parking lot and there was absolutely ZERO progress. Not impressed with the Rivian efforts.

After that I drove by the 8 Tesla SC location around 4:30pm to find all chargers occupied and another 7 Tesla vehicle waiting as 2 more pulled into the site. This site is a critical location for travelers going to or from Las Vegas from the Phoenix area. So it didn't matter what connector you had, things would not go well for you on that day and time. Can't imagine what might have happened if a Mach E would have shown up wanting to charge.

 

[DrewMcG]

They need to get plug and charge working for all cars. And that may mean adding a payment page to the phone app, and all that implies.

I suspect the engineering end of it is probably nearly done - at least as an engineering prototype. But VW is known for many layers of bureaucracy - sometimes it amazes me that they can accomplish anything.

You misunderstand, IMHO. By “investigating” I assume they mean making up their own mind and negotiating with Tesla. Everyone will use the same Tesla-oem’ed adapter, as Ford, Rivian, and presumably GM are/will be doing.

 

[EnergizerBunny]

I think something is fishy with delivering the Tesla adapters.
They are not really high tech and to take that long to provide the for Ford and Rivians makes me think that Tesla is stalling.
Vw being at the end of the line I have a feeling is going to be 2026 before we can use them.
Maybe but that time we won’t need them.

 

[DrewMcG]

Agreed, working Plug & Charge will likely be necessary with VWs because our cars don't freely give up VINs. Perhaps there's some other signature that will identify the car as a VW, but who knows? We'll see when we see.

However it plays out, we've got a wait.

plug & charge is irrelevant to magicdocs/nacs. We can all use magicdocs (even us ‘21 ID.4 owners) now w/o plug & charge…

 

[Nai3t]

plug & charge is irrelevant to magicdocs/nacs. We can all use magicdocs (even us ‘21 ID.4 owners) now w/o plug & charge…

Ultimately, it won't matter, but in the near term, while Tesla is being selective with Supercharger access, they need a method to identify what car is authorized when it plugs in.

So my comment is nothing to do with NACS, nothing to do with Magic Dock, but specifically re: Tesla gatekeeping and allowing VW access to their network.

 

[Ida Red]

I think something is fishy with delivering the Tesla adapters.
They are not really high tech and to take that long to provide the for Ford and Rivians makes me think that Tesla is stalling.
Vw being at the end of the line I have a feeling is going to be 2026 before we can use them.
Maybe but that time we won’t need them.

Tesla is apparently suing some of the non-Tesla adapter makers for making unlicensed products. I'm sure that $ plays a part (it always does) but there are real safety concerns about something that has 150kw of electricity flowing thru it at 400V. It's one thing to make a crappy 5w USB adapter but this is something else.

But the physical adapter part of this is really not the issue. If Tesla is having supplier problems with their adapters, someone else could make them and make them to work safely. The real issue is related to software, billing, Tesla making arrangements with mfrs to change their future cars over to NACS, etc. If it was only the adapters then everyone could be using Superchargers tomorrow. The fact that Musk fired the entire Supercharger team I'm sure didn't help.

The only way you are NOT going to need them in 2026 is if you don't own your current ID.4 anymore. The entire industry is going over to NACS and CCS chargers are going to become more and more rare. Eventually you WILL get an adapter and access to the Supercharger network and you will want if if not strictly speaking "need" it.

 

[EnergizerBunny]

I totally agree that only authorized adapters should be used and if Tesla makes them available no one will take any chances to use unauthorized ones.

I am hoping that the CCS charging infrastructure deployment picks up and if I have the option not to mess with adapters I would.

I am pretty sure charging will feature both CCS and NACS including Tesla.
If this develops as a business you want to make the life of your customers as easy as possible.
Adapters sounds like major maintenance issue no matter who does it.

 

[Nai3t]

I totally agree that only authorized adapters should be used and if Tesla makes them available no one will take any chances to use unauthorized ones.

Consider this: who manufacturers the charging handle that you use? Who manufacturers the cord? Who is the maker of the the CCS handle & cable at the nearest DCFC station?

What is "authorized" when manufacturing to an ISO-published standard? Who is the authorizing party?

These adapters aren't a black art. They need to be capable of safely conducting a known maximum current and connecting ports with published dimensions. Industry doesn't need Tesla's wisdom to tell us what's safe.

 

[EnergizerBunny]

Consider this: who manufacturers the charging handle that you use? Who manufacturers the cord? Who is the maker of the the CCS handle & cable at the nearest DCFC station?

What is "authorized" when manufacturing to an ISO-published standard? Who is the authorizing party?

These adapters aren't a black art. They need to be capable of safely conducting a known maximum current and connecting ports with published dimensions. Industry doesn't need Tesla's wisdom to tell us what's safe.

It is their charging network and I did come across some verbiage that you will be responsible if any damage occurs either with the car or the charger if not using authorized equipment.
I tend to heed these warnings.

 

[Moe]

Ford is giving EV owners more time to reserve Tesla NACS adaptors for free

Ford is giving EV owners more time to reserve a free Tesla NACS adaptor. The deadline is being pushed back...

electrek.co

 

[Nai3t]

It is their charging network and I did come across some verbiage that you will be responsible if any damage occurs either with the car or the charger if not using authorized equipment.
I tend to heed these warnings.

This may be true, but the fact remains.

And as other networks deploy NACS plugs on their DCFC equipment, it will become evident that NACS is indeed a regional standard, not a Tesla product.

 

[EnergizerBunny]

I would probably spend the money to buy any adapter today just to use it when there is overcrowding at EA.
Can’t stand waiting more than 20 mins to charge.
I was really surprised to see so many Mach-e owners waiting for 5 hours at Quartzsite 2 weeks ago. When there is a 100 Tesla site across the interstate.

 

[EnergizerBunny]

The key is healthy competition.
That’s where the government should step in and regulate the market.
First I would separate the charging from the car business.
Second, restricting access should be illegal and mandate whatever standard they choose while also supporting CCS.
Then , like any other business, they should pursue customers by competing in the market.

 

[Nai3t]

First I would separate the charging from the car business.

You mean separate Tesla from Superchargers? Ooh, that's a sticky one.

The government is attempting to coax Tesla in that direction by offering NEVI funds with stipulations.

But I think a much more valid counter argument would be that government should require EV makers to buy in to the charging business. What CCS has isn't working when compared to what Tesla has done.

Some day DC fast charging will be a sustainable business, but today, so much up -front investment is required that there needs to be a big money startup-like push, and who stands to gain the most from it? Car makers and if course consumers (vis-a-vis our taxpayer dollar backing).

 

[EnergizerBunny]

Charging issues has a detrimental effect on EV adoption putting in danger manufacturing.
At this point it’s best to be pragmatic and have some consultation with all parts involved.
Since only Tesla is really the only sustainable model they should bribe them with incentives such as abandoning the NEVI requirements in order to speed up the NACS transition.
I would even provide a grant to Tesla to complete the transition ASAP.if the adapters work abandon CCS cables, screens and CC readers.
Get a basic standard out there and refine later.

 

[Nai3t]

To wholesale "abandon" CCS at the dispenser

There are a million CCS cars on the road, and they're going to be out there in the wild for at least the next decade and then some.

As I see it, the reality is that with this transition, we're all going to be carrying adapters for a while, either CCS to NACS, or NACS to CCS. I don't think it benefits anybody to move quickly at the chargers.

At the car's charging port? Yes, lets make the switch immediately. But you have to accept that "immediately" means a year or two down the road. It's not just the charging port that's getting changed out. J3400 brings some new electrical requirements with it, namely the 277 volt support, that I assume with most manufacturers that's going to be a redesigned voltage converter and who know what other subtle changes. I don't expect any big auto manufacturer is nimble enough to make that change overnight.

 

[EnergizerBunny]

Obviously, abandon CCS as a NEVI requirement.
If everyone has decided to move to NACS DC charging why deploying new CCS cables.
Traveling in a CCS car right now is a major inconvenience.
Only Tesla has a solution and government can use a stick or carrot approach to speed up the transition.
Tesla is de facto the monopoly and will have to be separated from the car business one way or another through some sort of financial compensation scheme.
With the current situation the CCS cars will slowly die down and the manufacturing in US and Canada will suffer.

 

[Moe]

The Supercharger network was built at a time when there were huge profits on Tesla vehicles. There are still charging deserts within it and those compete for funding with sites that need expansion That funding has been drastically reduced by vehicle price cuts and lower profits. As a result, growth of the network had to be deeply cut. It has always been a low profit loss leader to sell cars and couldn’t survive at the same quality as a standalone business without untenable increases in charging costs.

Manufacturers of CCS vehicles have been in the opposite situation. Ford has racked up billions in losses and GM is still predicting when their EV business might turn a profit. They are both investing in charging to the extent they can, as are Rivian and Mercedes, not to mention all the members of IONNA. By and large, CCS charging is offered by charge point operators (with some sites for vehicle manufacturers), power companies, and increasingly oil companies. Like gas stations, CCS charging is a collective of individual efforts.

Then along came NEVI to not only fund some up front costs for some individual efforts but to try to give some centralized direction to the CCS build out. However, by having the states administer it, the dream of a nationwide NEVI network with sites every 50 miles may never come to fruition. While some states have made round two contingent awards and may have plans for 2b and even 3, some are essentially yet to begin.

Then along came NACS/J3400 which pretty much all vehicle manufacturers have signed on to. They likely have long term contracts for 240 volt AC onboard chargers and CCS receptacles and except perhaps for Hyundai, nothing coming anytime soon for 277VAC chargers or J3400 receptacles. If there were one million CCS vehicles on US roads at the end of 2023, there will probably be at least two million by the end of 2025 and more beyond. It could also be even by then only half of them have NACS to CCS1 adapters, given Tesla remains the sole source (for access to Superchargers).

The free market will do what it will with EV DCFC. I believe for the next two years, non-Tesla providers will have little demand for J3400 charging and can’t compete with the Supercharger network. OTOH, they have current and increasing demand for CCS charging, again, for the next two years. If they want immediate return on sites being deployed today, they will be CCS.

That brings us to the government’s future role, which could typically be slow to change. Round two of NEVI is virtually contracted through 2025 for CCS in several states. For future sites, should those states be allowed to continue with CCS, required to switch to J3400, or required to have both which could give Magic Dock a leg up?

What about Florida which hasn’t even started NEVI? Will they be allowed to go all J3400 from the get go or be required to have both? If the government wants Tesla more involved the latter enticement may be the only constitutional way to do that. But it is the states which ultimately make the awards and if non-Tesla providers propose Magic Dock alternatives, they, not Tesla, may win.

For someone buying a road tripping EV today the clear choice wrt charging is a Tesla with its included J1772 adapter and optional $250 CCS1 adapter. The belt and suspenders drivers will also opt for the optional $250 120/240VAC mobile connector. And there’s a frunk to keep it all in without having to remove cargo to get under the floor. IMO, it’s the current, available no-brainer solution, but not every buyer is willing to make the Tesla choice. It’s for them all this CCS support is needed.

 

[Dougie01]

Regardless of whether you like NACS or CCS1 or CHAdeMO or "ratty extension cord with duct tape to cover the torn insulation so that I can connect to the dryer outlet in the basement," wrapping a wet cloth around the connector to help charging rates in hot weather by fooling the temperature sensors seems like about the most brain dead idea out there. Not only is this a case of trying to bypass the safety features, it is a case of mixing electricity and water. The arc flash could be a real spectacle!

 

[Ahab]

Regardless of whether you like NACS or CCS1 or CHAdeMO or "ratty extension cord with duct tape to cover the torn insulation so that I can connect to the dryer outlet in the basement," wrapping a wet cloth around the connector to help charging rates in hot weather by fooling the temperature sensors seems like about the most brain dead idea out there. Not only is this a case of trying to bypass the safety features, it is a case of mixing electricity and water. The arc flash could be a real spectacle!

Could this become a new Darwin Award category?